4 ms·

With Visual Studio and C#, you can do that with a built-in wizard without even having to compile. It scares me how good C# is these days. Every killer feature

With Visual Studio and C#, you can do that with a built-in wizard without even having to compile. It scares me how good C# is these days. Every killer feature of Rust and Lisp is already in C# or started there. Visual Studio makes VSCode look like a 90s shareware tool. Even the governance, by MS of all entities, is somehow less controversial than Rust’s.

macagain 2y ago
Visual Studio ONLY works well on Windows, the mac version is not the same, and certain features just does NOT work as well as the Windows version. And having a language tight down to an IDE which is tight down to a proprietary OS is a deal breaker for me! No matter how good it is these days with every killer feature of Rust and Lisp. I would rather use a more raw unrefined version of tech that is open source. So my code and DX is not at wimp of some corporate over lord! And given MS's track record I do
- neonsunset 2y ago
  C# with Rider is a more comprehensive experience than Rust + RA + VSC. C# in VSC is about on the same level with Rust regardless of the platform. I always considered C#, F# and Rust as languages complementary to each other since each has their own distinct domain and use cases despite a good degree of overlap. Much less so than Java/Kotlin and Golang or any interpreted language (except Python and JS/TS in front-end) which are made obsolete by using the first three.
tialaramex 2y ago
It's really not true that "every killer feature of Rust and Lisp is already in C#" although it's certainly true that C# is a nicer language today than it was twenty years ago. Sum types are a must-have for me. I don't want to write software without sum types. In C# you can add third party libraries to mostly simulate sum types, or you can choose a style where you avoid some of the worst pitfalls from only having product types and a simple enumeration, but either is a poor shadow to Rust having them as a core language feature. Also VS is a sprawling beast, I spend almost as much time in the search function of Visual Studio finding where a solution I've seen lives as I do hand solving a similar problem in Vim. I spend the time because in Vim the editor won't get in my way when I solve it by hand, while VS absolutely might "helpfully" insert unrelated nonsense as I type if I don't use the "proper" tools buried in page 4 of tab 6 of a panel of the Option->Config->Preferences->Options->More Options->Other section or whatever. Visual Studio is what would happen if Microsoft asked 250 developers each for their best idea for a new VS feature and then did it, every year for the past several decades, without fail. No need for these features to work together or make sense as a coherent whole, they're new features so therefore the whole package is better, right? It's like a metaphor for bad engineering practice for every Windows programmer to see.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  Use VSC instead. The higher-level alternative to Rust is more so F# than C# as it has comparably powerful type system with different tradeoffs (gradual typing and full type inference across function boundaries - it's less verbose to write than Rust because of this). Otherwise C# is not tied to VS at all because all the tools that it provides have alternatives either in Rider/JB suite and/or in a self-contained CLI way together with just using VS Code. .NET's CLI is very similar to Cargo in either case.
gfna 2y ago
c# has been my go to language for everything except frontends for the past 15 years, but there are still some things I really miss from Rust. The top one is probably pattern matching. Sure C# has something similar with switch expressions, but with them you must assign something, and they cannot contain code blocks. Related to this something like enum variants is also missing, and therefore making something similar to Result or Option is not really feasible without it being quite hacky. Also being able to create new types from existing ones with eg struct Years(i64); and pass it around typed is quite nice in Rust (F# has something similar, however there it will then always also be assignable to i64, so is not very helpful for catching incorrect usage.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  > Also being able to create new types from existing ones with eg struct Years(i64); and pass it around typed is quite nice in Rust (F# has something similar, however there it will then always also be assignable to i64, so is not very helpful for catching incorrect usage. F# has units of measure which are quite a bit more powerful: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-reference/units-of-measure https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-ref...
- arwhatever 2y ago
  I’d be eager to hear folks poke holes in this opinion, but it seems like C# has made a wild mess of class/record initialization in recent versions, whereas in Rust fields are either simply required or are optional.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    Properties in C# follow a similar pattern. Constructors can have their own arguments which can also be mandatory or optional. In Rust this logic simply lives in a function instead. The only issue in C# is that structs come with a. default parameterless constructor (which can be overridden) and b. can be default-intialized (default(T)) without the compiler complaining by default. These two aspects are not ideal and cannot be walked back as they were introduced in ancient times but are rarely an issue in practice (and you can further use an analyzer to disallow either). F# is more strict about it however and does not have such gaps.

macagain 2y ago

Visual Studio ONLY works well on Windows, the mac version is not the same, and certain features just does NOT work as well as the Windows version. And having a language tight down to an IDE which is tight down to a proprietary OS is a deal breaker for me! No matter how good it is these days with every killer feature of Rust and Lisp. I would rather use a more raw unrefined version of tech that is open source. So my code and DX is not at wimp of some corporate over lord! And given MS's track record I do

neonsunset 2y ago
C# with Rider is a more comprehensive experience than Rust + RA + VSC. C# in VSC is about on the same level with Rust regardless of the platform. I always considered C#, F# and Rust as languages complementary to each other since each has their own distinct domain and use cases despite a good degree of overlap. Much less so than Java/Kotlin and Golang or any interpreted language (except Python and JS/TS in front-end) which are made obsolete by using the first three.

tialaramex 2y ago

It's really not true that "every killer feature of Rust and Lisp is already in C#" although it's certainly true that C# is a nicer language today than it was twenty years ago. Sum types are a must-have for me. I don't want to write software without sum types. In C# you can add third party libraries to mostly simulate sum types, or you can choose a style where you avoid some of the worst pitfalls from only having product types and a simple enumeration, but either is a poor shadow to Rust having them as a core language feature. Also VS is a sprawling beast, I spend almost as much time in the search function of Visual Studio finding where a solution I've seen lives as I do hand solving a similar problem in Vim. I spend the time because in Vim the editor won't get in my way when I solve it by hand, while VS absolutely might "helpfully" insert unrelated nonsense as I type if I don't use the "proper" tools buried in page 4 of tab 6 of a panel of the Option->Config->Preferences->Options->More Options->Other section or whatever. Visual Studio is what would happen if Microsoft asked 250 developers each for their best idea for a new VS feature and then did it, every year for the past several decades, without fail. No need for these features to work together or make sense as a coherent whole, they're new features so therefore the whole package is better, right? It's like a metaphor for bad engineering practice for every Windows programmer to see.

neonsunset 2y ago
Use VSC instead. The higher-level alternative to Rust is more so F# than C# as it has comparably powerful type system with different tradeoffs (gradual typing and full type inference across function boundaries - it's less verbose to write than Rust because of this). Otherwise C# is not tied to VS at all because all the tools that it provides have alternatives either in Rider/JB suite and/or in a self-contained CLI way together with just using VS Code. .NET's CLI is very similar to Cargo in either case.

gfna 2y ago

c# has been my go to language for everything except frontends for the past 15 years, but there are still some things I really miss from Rust. The top one is probably pattern matching. Sure C# has something similar with switch expressions, but with them you must assign something, and they cannot contain code blocks. Related to this something like enum variants is also missing, and therefore making something similar to Result or Option is not really feasible without it being quite hacky. Also being able to create new types from existing ones with eg struct Years(i64); and pass it around typed is quite nice in Rust (F# has something similar, however there it will then always also be assignable to i64, so is not very helpful for catching incorrect usage.

neonsunset 2y ago
> Also being able to create new types from existing ones with eg struct Years(i64); and pass it around typed is quite nice in Rust (F# has something similar, however there it will then always also be assignable to i64, so is not very helpful for catching incorrect usage. F# has units of measure which are quite a bit more powerful: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-reference/units-of-measure https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/language-ref...
arwhatever 2y ago
I’d be eager to hear folks poke holes in this opinion, but it seems like C# has made a wild mess of class/record initialization in recent versions, whereas in Rust fields are either simply required or are optional.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  Properties in C# follow a similar pattern. Constructors can have their own arguments which can also be mandatory or optional. In Rust this logic simply lives in a function instead. The only issue in C# is that structs come with a. default parameterless constructor (which can be overridden) and b. can be default-intialized (default(T)) without the compiler complaining by default. These two aspects are not ideal and cannot be walked back as they were introduced in ancient times but are rarely an issue in practice (and you can further use an analyzer to disallow either). F# is more strict about it however and does not have such gaps.