6 ms·

This is a great comprehensive article on the "why" and there are good YouTube videos on the "how." What the article is missing that makes it even better is putt

This is a great comprehensive article on the "why" and there are good YouTube videos on the "how." What the article is missing that makes it even better is putting an SSD in which makes it even faster of course. You can get an untested Mac mini G4 for about $60 on eBay and the rest of the parts (SSD, PATA-mSATA adapter, RAM if less than 1 GB, power adapter, any missing screws, clock battery, etc.) will run you another $60 to make the ultimate Mac OS 9 machine. If you're comfortable taking things apart and putting them back together it's not too bad. A quick tip: be sure to reset the PRAM with command-alt-p-r holding down during restart until you hear 3 chimes. Then while the machine is booting hold down command-alt-o-f and type "reset-nvram" and then "set-defaults" and then "reset-all" (all of this is in open firmware) before installing Mac OS 9 to make sure firmware is in its original state. I came across this idea of SSD upgrading and installing Mac OS 9 in April 2024 and bought three broken ones to build one for my son. [0] When the first one worked, I ended up figuring, why not just finish the other two and sell them on eBay? That led me into a hobby business. I've now cleaned, upgraded with SSDs, and sold about 70 of them. The "business" basically breaks even, so it truly is a hobby. In fact I invested so much in inventory buying 90 of them in a lot at the end of 2024 that I am negative right now. I will probably turn a slight profit in 2025. But it's fun and if you want you can buy one from me at: https://os9.shop https://os9.shop Sorry for the self-promotion, but very relevant! 0: https://x.com/davekopec/status/1795872492386398683 https://x.com/davekopec/status/1795872492386398683

haunter 2y ago
How fast do modern SSDs die in older systems without TRIM?
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  I am yet to hear about 1 dying from a customer. But I can't give you a scientific answer to that and I've only been doing this since April. There's a whole community of people doing these upgrades. You can find them at https://macos9lives.com https://macos9lives.com That's where the hacked Mac OS 9 comes from and there are threads about Mac mini SSDs. There are also threads at https://68kmla.org https://68kmla.org I would ask there.
  - elliotnunn 2y ago
    This is the patch that I wrote to make the “Mac OS ROM” file bootable on the mini. The original development happened at MacOS9Lives. Anyone interested in Classic Mac OS hacking is very welcome to join us at #mac68k on Libera. https://github.com/elliotnunn/tbxi-patches/blob/master/macmini.py https://github.com/elliotnunn/tbxi-patches/blob/master/macmi...
- mistyvales 2y ago
  Most good/modern SSD's should have built in capabilities for at least the bare minimum of garbage cleanup
  - LocutusOfBorges 2y ago
    Is this actually enough? I've never been able to find a clear answer on this - it's become increasingly common to install SATA SSDs in retro game consoles, for example, but nobody seems to have ever done any testing to see if the functionality on newer SSDs is adequate to handle systems without TRIM support. You used to hear all kinds of horror stories about people who threw a SSD into their PS3 and found their whole system grinding to a halt within a year.
    - p_ing 2y ago
      While a year of lifetime would suck, does it ultimately matter? This is old equipment not used for anything critical in the context of the discussion in this thread.
      - LocutusOfBorges 2y ago
        It only matters insofar as it has the potential to cause people some annoyance down the line which they'd likely prefer to avoid. People don't tend to want to have to actively maintain their old tech any more than they absolutely have to.
        p_ing 2y ago
        Oh absolutely, do not disagree. Though I do think that if one is using old tech, they should be aware of the pitfalls. There was a good run of the capacitor plague, for example. I avoid this equipment in general as I don't have soldering skills (but man oh man, I would love to have a working SE/30! People trying to sell repaired SE/30s on eBay for $1400USD!) to repair them. I know the VRM on my G4 Cube can potentially have issues, as can the power brick. Fortunately there are small batch available replacements should I need them.
- cosmic_cheese 2y ago
  Given the tiny filesizes of the games involved, if durability is a worry I’d just overprovision space. SATA SSDs are dirt cheap these days and it’d take ages for an OS 9 install to write to all the cells in a 256GB drive (assuming adequate RAM + disabled virtual memory), let alone with 500GB+ drives.
- jmb99 2y ago
  There exist (very cheap) SSDs without TRIM support at all currently for sale. I own one. It won’t die, but writes will suck if you’re writing more than the overprovisioned space all at once. For this use case, that’ll probably never happen (and it’ll probably still be faster than the original HDD both in throughput and random I/O). Some SSDs also support primitive garbage collection if sequences of 1s are written to the disk in unused spaces. I don’t know how to accomplish that on OS 9, but it might be possible with 10.4 or 10.5’s disk utility. If I remember correctly, there’s an “erase free space” function. Whether that writes 1s or 0s I’m not sure, though.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  Old OSes like MacOS 9 barely touch your disk with writes at all, they typically don't have any log files they're writing to, they barely use any virtual memory. These things are never going to see the terabytes of writes they're rated for. Lots of people (me included) use SD card or Compact Flash adapters in old machines without wearing them out and those have way worse endurance than SSDs. I have a PowerBook that's been running 24/7 for the past year as an Apple Internet Router and AppleShare file server on GlobalTalk off an SD card in a SCSI2SD adapter with no issues.
- crest 2y ago
  You also have to account for the expected writes. Modern SSDs may perform better (over time) with TRIM, but if you just create (or leave) an erased partition to bump the effective over-provisioning even cheap consumer SSDs should outlast the expected usage for a cute little retro computing system. It would be different if you used them them 24/7 to keep some old, but demanding peripheral alive (e.g. a large old printing machine) running. If you can schedule the downtime you could still, image the disk, erase it, and restore the disk every few months under the guise of preventive maintenance. Heck if you (net-)boot Linux or *BSD depending on the IDE<->SATA bridge used you may be able to send TRIM/UNMAP commands to the SSD without opening case. Of course each such backup/erase/restore cycle would be equivalent to a full drive write.
markus_zhang 2y ago
Wait looks like you ship to Canada! I'll take a closer look now.
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  I do ship to Canada, but unfortunately the (auto-calculated by Shopify/UPS/DHL/USPS) international shipping prices are quite high (I've seen about $30 to Canada and $50 to Germany in the past). Plus in some countries the purchaser ends up having to pay duties, so check your local laws. A way somewhat around this is to buy from me on eBay since they take care of the shipping and duties, and have lower shipping costs: https://www.ebay.com/usr/oaksnowconsultingllc https://www.ebay.com/usr/oaksnowconsultingllc The downside is packages through eBay International Shipping tend to take like a month whereas UPS ships packages in less than a week pretty much anywhere. I sold one on os9.shop to Germany last month that got to Germany in 3 days and to the person's door in 5. My prices on os9.shop are also lower to begin with because I don't have any eBay fees. The equivalent package on os9.shop to the eBay packages is the Average Condition bundles. US customers should definitely buy at https://os9.shop https://os9.shop since it's the same stuff and the prices are lower and the shipping is the same.
  - amatecha 2y ago
    RE: shipping to Canada: use USPS. Using Fedex or UPS will incur gigantic "brokerage fees" which you are not charged when using USPS + Canada Post. We're talking like $30+ on a $100 package, and that's upon arrival to your door, after you already paid $20-30 shipping. I got a plexiglass trophy from an event at my work and it cost me $25 to receive it because they used UPS to ship it.
    - WoodenChair 2y ago
      When customers are checking out they have the option to choose USPS, UPS, etc. I've seen prices to Canada be more for USPS than UPS. Shopify handles most of this. I don't charge any handling so it's just whatever the raw shipping cost that is calculated by Shopify/USPS/etc.
mistyvales 2y ago
How hard is it to get those hacks working for the higher resolutions on the 64mb video card (1.5ghz version)? Is the extra 32mb video ram noticeable in games, or does it not even matter in OS9?
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  It can be a challenge under DVI->HDMI. People have had more luck under DVI->VGA. It also can vary from monitor to monitor. There is a long thread on the macos9lives.com forums about this issue: https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.0 https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.0 If you are concerned get a 1.25 or 1.42. The 32 MB of VRAM difference (the 1.5 has 64 MB of VRAM while the 1.42 has 32 MB) will not make a difference for almost any Mac OS 9 game. But yes, if you want the ultimate in terms of GHz and VRAM go for the 1.5. In some late '90s and early '00s FPS games it could be a benefit.
simfree 2y ago
Does dialup work on these Mac Minis?
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  Some configurations have built-in 56K modems, but not all. I have never tested it under the hacked Mac OS 9. I would search the forums on macos9lives.com where the hack originates.
BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
> alt nit: On a mac the key is called "option".
gabriel-uribe 2y ago
I love this site. So simple, so effective. Thanks for putting these Minis out there at fair prices!
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.
piltdownman 2y ago
You little beauty, someone based on this side of the pond for once! I'll be in touch in the next few weeks to try and get the best example you have over to Dublin for a dedicated Ambrosia Shareware / Legacy Audio Software machine. I nearly considered something like this a few years back but the domestic market was way too small to consider. Fair play for the labour of love.
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  I am actually based in USA, but Shopify automatically localizes the site for visitors in other countries, so maybe you saw localized currency. Sounds like a cool project and yes a lot of people getting this to use old audio software or play Escape Velocity.
duffyjp 2y ago
I did the same with a G4 Mac Mini. One suggestion for your hobby/business-- I went with a PATA->m.2 SATA adapter instead of PATA->mSATA. It works like a charm and when I built mine a couple years ago it was actually much cheaper. Obviously it completely saturates the PATA interface. I ran 10.4 and Void (no longer maintained) so if there's a technical reason to stay on mSATA for Mac OS 9 please ignore. ;)
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  Can you link me to the specific adapter you're using? The thing is after doing so many, I know the adapter I use is compatible and has no issues. I buy now direct in bulk over AliExpress but here is the equivalent Amazon listing: https://amzn.to/40fohWR https://amzn.to/40fohWR
  - duffyjp 2y ago
    I looked back at my eBay history. It looks like I bought it way back in 2021, longer ago than it feels... They don't have a brand, and the listing is long gone, but here is the description on my invoice: 2 Pack M.2 NGFF SATA SSD to 2.5 inch IDE 44PIN Converter Adapter with Case Unit price $17.98 I did a Mac Mini and also a Powerbook G4. They work great in both.

haunter 2y ago

How fast do modern SSDs die in older systems without TRIM?

WoodenChair 2y ago
I am yet to hear about 1 dying from a customer. But I can't give you a scientific answer to that and I've only been doing this since April. There's a whole community of people doing these upgrades. You can find them at https://macos9lives.com https://macos9lives.com That's where the hacked Mac OS 9 comes from and there are threads about Mac mini SSDs. There are also threads at https://68kmla.org https://68kmla.org I would ask there.
- elliotnunn 2y ago
  This is the patch that I wrote to make the “Mac OS ROM” file bootable on the mini. The original development happened at MacOS9Lives. Anyone interested in Classic Mac OS hacking is very welcome to join us at #mac68k on Libera. https://github.com/elliotnunn/tbxi-patches/blob/master/macmini.py https://github.com/elliotnunn/tbxi-patches/blob/master/macmi...
mistyvales 2y ago
Most good/modern SSD's should have built in capabilities for at least the bare minimum of garbage cleanup
- LocutusOfBorges 2y ago
  Is this actually enough? I've never been able to find a clear answer on this - it's become increasingly common to install SATA SSDs in retro game consoles, for example, but nobody seems to have ever done any testing to see if the functionality on newer SSDs is adequate to handle systems without TRIM support. You used to hear all kinds of horror stories about people who threw a SSD into their PS3 and found their whole system grinding to a halt within a year.
  - p_ing 2y ago
    While a year of lifetime would suck, does it ultimately matter? This is old equipment not used for anything critical in the context of the discussion in this thread.
    - LocutusOfBorges 2y ago
      It only matters insofar as it has the potential to cause people some annoyance down the line which they'd likely prefer to avoid. People don't tend to want to have to actively maintain their old tech any more than they absolutely have to.
      - p_ing 2y ago
        Oh absolutely, do not disagree. Though I do think that if one is using old tech, they should be aware of the pitfalls. There was a good run of the capacitor plague, for example. I avoid this equipment in general as I don't have soldering skills (but man oh man, I would love to have a working SE/30! People trying to sell repaired SE/30s on eBay for $1400USD!) to repair them. I know the VRM on my G4 Cube can potentially have issues, as can the power brick. Fortunately there are small batch available replacements should I need them.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Given the tiny filesizes of the games involved, if durability is a worry I’d just overprovision space. SATA SSDs are dirt cheap these days and it’d take ages for an OS 9 install to write to all the cells in a 256GB drive (assuming adequate RAM + disabled virtual memory), let alone with 500GB+ drives.
jmb99 2y ago
There exist (very cheap) SSDs without TRIM support at all currently for sale. I own one. It won’t die, but writes will suck if you’re writing more than the overprovisioned space all at once. For this use case, that’ll probably never happen (and it’ll probably still be faster than the original HDD both in throughput and random I/O). Some SSDs also support primitive garbage collection if sequences of 1s are written to the disk in unused spaces. I don’t know how to accomplish that on OS 9, but it might be possible with 10.4 or 10.5’s disk utility. If I remember correctly, there’s an “erase free space” function. Whether that writes 1s or 0s I’m not sure, though.
kalleboo 2y ago
Old OSes like MacOS 9 barely touch your disk with writes at all, they typically don't have any log files they're writing to, they barely use any virtual memory. These things are never going to see the terabytes of writes they're rated for. Lots of people (me included) use SD card or Compact Flash adapters in old machines without wearing them out and those have way worse endurance than SSDs. I have a PowerBook that's been running 24/7 for the past year as an Apple Internet Router and AppleShare file server on GlobalTalk off an SD card in a SCSI2SD adapter with no issues.
crest 2y ago
You also have to account for the expected writes. Modern SSDs may perform better (over time) with TRIM, but if you just create (or leave) an erased partition to bump the effective over-provisioning even cheap consumer SSDs should outlast the expected usage for a cute little retro computing system. It would be different if you used them them 24/7 to keep some old, but demanding peripheral alive (e.g. a large old printing machine) running. If you can schedule the downtime you could still, image the disk, erase it, and restore the disk every few months under the guise of preventive maintenance. Heck if you (net-)boot Linux or *BSD depending on the IDE<->SATA bridge used you may be able to send TRIM/UNMAP commands to the SSD without opening case. Of course each such backup/erase/restore cycle would be equivalent to a full drive write.

markus_zhang 2y ago

Wait looks like you ship to Canada! I'll take a closer look now.

WoodenChair 2y ago
I do ship to Canada, but unfortunately the (auto-calculated by Shopify/UPS/DHL/USPS) international shipping prices are quite high (I've seen about $30 to Canada and $50 to Germany in the past). Plus in some countries the purchaser ends up having to pay duties, so check your local laws. A way somewhat around this is to buy from me on eBay since they take care of the shipping and duties, and have lower shipping costs: https://www.ebay.com/usr/oaksnowconsultingllc https://www.ebay.com/usr/oaksnowconsultingllc The downside is packages through eBay International Shipping tend to take like a month whereas UPS ships packages in less than a week pretty much anywhere. I sold one on os9.shop to Germany last month that got to Germany in 3 days and to the person's door in 5. My prices on os9.shop are also lower to begin with because I don't have any eBay fees. The equivalent package on os9.shop to the eBay packages is the Average Condition bundles. US customers should definitely buy at https://os9.shop https://os9.shop since it's the same stuff and the prices are lower and the shipping is the same.
- amatecha 2y ago
  RE: shipping to Canada: use USPS. Using Fedex or UPS will incur gigantic "brokerage fees" which you are not charged when using USPS + Canada Post. We're talking like $30+ on a $100 package, and that's upon arrival to your door, after you already paid $20-30 shipping. I got a plexiglass trophy from an event at my work and it cost me $25 to receive it because they used UPS to ship it.
  - WoodenChair 2y ago
    When customers are checking out they have the option to choose USPS, UPS, etc. I've seen prices to Canada be more for USPS than UPS. Shopify handles most of this. I don't charge any handling so it's just whatever the raw shipping cost that is calculated by Shopify/USPS/etc.

mistyvales 2y ago

How hard is it to get those hacks working for the higher resolutions on the 64mb video card (1.5ghz version)? Is the extra 32mb video ram noticeable in games, or does it not even matter in OS9?

WoodenChair 2y ago
It can be a challenge under DVI->HDMI. People have had more luck under DVI->VGA. It also can vary from monitor to monitor. There is a long thread on the macos9lives.com forums about this issue: https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.0 https://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=7048.0 If you are concerned get a 1.25 or 1.42. The 32 MB of VRAM difference (the 1.5 has 64 MB of VRAM while the 1.42 has 32 MB) will not make a difference for almost any Mac OS 9 game. But yes, if you want the ultimate in terms of GHz and VRAM go for the 1.5. In some late '90s and early '00s FPS games it could be a benefit.

simfree 2y ago

Does dialup work on these Mac Minis?

WoodenChair 2y ago
Some configurations have built-in 56K modems, but not all. I have never tested it under the hacked Mac OS 9. I would search the forums on macos9lives.com where the hack originates.

BugsJustFindMe 2y ago

> alt nit: On a mac the key is called "option".

gabriel-uribe 2y ago

I love this site. So simple, so effective. Thanks for putting these Minis out there at fair prices!

WoodenChair 2y ago
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.

piltdownman 2y ago

You little beauty, someone based on this side of the pond for once! I'll be in touch in the next few weeks to try and get the best example you have over to Dublin for a dedicated Ambrosia Shareware / Legacy Audio Software machine. I nearly considered something like this a few years back but the domestic market was way too small to consider. Fair play for the labour of love.

WoodenChair 2y ago
I am actually based in USA, but Shopify automatically localizes the site for visitors in other countries, so maybe you saw localized currency. Sounds like a cool project and yes a lot of people getting this to use old audio software or play Escape Velocity.

duffyjp 2y ago

I did the same with a G4 Mac Mini. One suggestion for your hobby/business-- I went with a PATA->m.2 SATA adapter instead of PATA->mSATA. It works like a charm and when I built mine a couple years ago it was actually much cheaper. Obviously it completely saturates the PATA interface. I ran 10.4 and Void (no longer maintained) so if there's a technical reason to stay on mSATA for Mac OS 9 please ignore. ;)

WoodenChair 2y ago
Can you link me to the specific adapter you're using? The thing is after doing so many, I know the adapter I use is compatible and has no issues. I buy now direct in bulk over AliExpress but here is the equivalent Amazon listing: https://amzn.to/40fohWR https://amzn.to/40fohWR
- duffyjp 2y ago
  I looked back at my eBay history. It looks like I bought it way back in 2021, longer ago than it feels... They don't have a brand, and the listing is long gone, but here is the description on my invoice: 2 Pack M.2 NGFF SATA SSD to 2.5 inch IDE 44PIN Converter Adapter with Case Unit price $17.98 I did a Mac Mini and also a Powerbook G4. They work great in both.