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I've mentioned this in other threads, but I run a small side business refurbishing and selling old laptops. One element of my work is saving retro machines for

I've mentioned this in other threads, but I run a small side business refurbishing and selling old laptops. One element of my work is saving retro machines for retrocomputing, old hardware interfaces, etc., but I also refurbish and sell for general use. For the average person with average needs, there is no difference between, for example, a $100 Dell Latitude E5530 from 10+ years ago and a $600 Best Buy low-end Dell laptop from today, so long as the Latitude has been modestly upgraded with 8GB of RAM and a small, used SSD. Its 3rd generation i5 is more than enough to do anything they need. It even runs Windows 11 just fine, so long as you inform the customer about the need to manually install feature updates. For the general public, buying new computers is an expensive scam that contributes massively to waste. The machines I refurbish would typically have been thrown out or 'recycled' (stripped for precious metals in an expensive process) if not for my intervention. There's no reason for this except number-go-up greed, and it should stop.

superjan 2y ago
And, refurbished business laptops tend to have better keyboards than consumer grade laptops, as well as a better build quality (generally speaking).
ChiefNotAClue 2y ago
I'd argue that new, low-end laptops are in the $300-$400 range. Most people would be better served by a new laptop, instead of a decade old refurb. Sure, basic tasks might not need additional processing power, but things like better battery life, higher resolution screens, fast solid state drives, better webcams, and network adapters supporting newer wifi/bluetooth standards are things the average person would notice and benefit from. I doubt the average person knows how to or is willing to manually install feature updates to continue to run Windows 11 on an unsupported laptop. Refurbishing is great, but I'm not sure how much more you can get out of a 10+ year old platform. I think the sweetspot is a 3-6 year old platform where a refurbished unit will be a decent bit cheaper, but still have a good bit of life left.
- the_snooze 2y ago
  For laptops specifically, the technical specs don't matter for most use cases, but the "quality-of-life" things absolutely do: screen resolution and brightness, keyboard and trackpad comfort, and battery life. It's hard for me to recommend most ~$500 Windows laptops when they skimp out on those things to lean into specs, while older-model Apple Silicon MacBook Airs are just a bit pricier but absolutely deliver on quality-of-life.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Yep, Apple likely got a bunch of lifetime customers during the decade long period they spent not leaning into specs in favor of putting every dollar into quality of life. Gamers and power users of course shunned them for so long saying, "you could get a better laptop for half the price!" but it's a testament to how good the build quality was that the full force of tech enthusiasts telling everyone not to buy it wasn't enough to sway people away. Everywhere but the low end the point has become kind of moot these days for the most part, Apple has beefy specs now and mid-high range Dells and Thinkpads have good build quality and QoL. I think speaker quality is the most noticeable difference between Apple and Dell where Dell just doesn't value it as anything other than an afterthought.
    - HWR_14 2y ago
      Thinkpads had excellent build quality for most of their history.
    - SR2Z 2y ago
      > Gamers and power users of course shunned them for so long saying, "you could get a better laptop for half the price!" but it's a testament to how good the build quality was that the full force of tech enthusiasts telling everyone not to buy it wasn't enough to sway people away. I've had two Intel MBP cook themselves to death within two years. The best laptop I've ever used was an Thinkpad X1 Carbon and I'll die on that hill - I find that Apple's build quality for a lot of stuff is ridiculously overrated and on-par with PCs that cost similarly. The lack of cooling is awful and the extra survivability of MacBooks is helped a lot by their status as shiny prestigious toys for people who don't care that much about using their computers. Obviously plenty of people get real work done on them, but I'm not sure that they're actually more reliable for the price.
valleyer 2y ago
Where do you buy the old machines from?
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  Mostly from local recyclers; also sometimes from folks on Craigslist who are looking to sell instead of recycle. Prices range dramatically based on the machine but $10 or less for a Windows XP machine is normal, $15-20 for a 4th-6th gen i3/i5, and it goes up from there. I have relationships with a few recyclers and also volunteer my time with a nonprofit that also offers refurbishing; I frequently buy the machines they don't have time to deal with for low prices. Recyclers have a huge advantage in getting their machines for free; I am too small-time to do that effectively. However, I take on the repair jobs they're not willing to do, so I get a pretty good deal on the inventory they have.
Pooge 2y ago
If you don't mind me asking: how did you first build your client-base? And even now, how do people know that you sell those products?
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  I started out with an eBay store, and expanded to Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist. I'd say about 50% of my sales are on eBay, 40% on FBM, and the remaining 10% through Craigslist - but it changes a lot based on time of year and what the product is. Windows XP machines almost exclusively sell through eBay; more expensive machines almost always sell through FBM. Most of my buyers buy one machine and are done, but a substantial subset are return customers. Return business is all about the usual stuff: Reputation, level of service, quality of the product. I have a few "regulars" who have bought 4+ machines from me, usually hobbyists or small business owners with a specific need. Having done this for a couple of years, I also now get return customers semi-frequently who bought something a while ago, like it, remember me, and seek me out again. I don't offer warranties or guarantees on items, but I'm aggressively inexpensive compared to the competition, and I operate on an informal "if I broke it, I fix it" policy. If I told you something was working and then later it breaks, I either fix it, swap it out, or replace the machine. I have a five-star reputation on Facebook Marketplace and 99.6% positive feedback on eBay as a result of this policy, so it works decently well.
  - HWR_14 2y ago
    When you say WinXP machines, are you selling them with XP? I thought even the extended support had ended.
    - ivraatiems 2y ago
      Yes, they're sold with XP Delta Edition, which rolls up all the updates that exist into one package and adds some bells and whistles. All my XP product listings have a disclaimer that mentions XP is unsupported and shouldn't be used for everyday computing; I have on occasion had to steer away customers looking for a general-purpose machine to something else. The typical customer who does buy an XP machine is either doing retrogaming, running legacy hardware (industrial control systems and medical equipment are common), or has some other XP-specific need.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
I feel average person doesn't even use a computer/laptop anymore. Smartphone + TV covers most cases. iPad if you are a bit more advanced.
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  Exactly - but every now and then, they might need one for something, and a $60-100 laptop will do fine in that case.
heraldgeezer 2y ago
Buy refurb business laptops/desktops.
0xcoffee 2y ago
I only buy second hand laptops for myself, but I think the power/efficiency gains of modern cpu's should not be overlooked. The average person doesn't need a strong cpu, but the laptop should not burn their lap or run out of battery while they browse facebook.
- mathgeek 2y ago
  Oddly enough, very few folks I know use their laptops without being plugged in most of the time. I know I rarely do.
snakeyjake 2y ago
An E5530 with an i5-3210m, 16GB of RAM, and HD4000 graphics cannot play 1080p YouTube videos without dropping frames. I tried. My current garage computer, a i7-8700 with 64GB and UHD-630 graphics cannot play a YouTube video without dropping frames if the "Ambient Mode" (which adds a glowing drop shadow behind the video playback rectangle) YouTube option is turned on. A Raspberry Pi can. Smooth 1080p video playback using contemporary video codecs is a mandatory task for the average person with average needs. I like old computers. My home's NTP server is a Digital AlphaStation 200 4/233 from 1995 running Digital UNIX 4. I have so many old machines people think I am a little off, which I am. One of my coffee tables is a Sun Ultra 450. You will hear no arguments from me about keeping a system running as long as is practical. As is practical. A user with only $100 to spend is better served by a Raspberry Pi. Anyone who needs the computer to improve their education, further their life, or earn money, needs something that gives them the least amount of friction they can afford. And a Latitude E5530 is nothing but friction. From poor battery life to abysmal screen to slow performance to OS workarounds: friction.

superjan 2y ago

And, refurbished business laptops tend to have better keyboards than consumer grade laptops, as well as a better build quality (generally speaking).

ChiefNotAClue 2y ago

I'd argue that new, low-end laptops are in the $300-$400 range. Most people would be better served by a new laptop, instead of a decade old refurb. Sure, basic tasks might not need additional processing power, but things like better battery life, higher resolution screens, fast solid state drives, better webcams, and network adapters supporting newer wifi/bluetooth standards are things the average person would notice and benefit from. I doubt the average person knows how to or is willing to manually install feature updates to continue to run Windows 11 on an unsupported laptop. Refurbishing is great, but I'm not sure how much more you can get out of a 10+ year old platform. I think the sweetspot is a 3-6 year old platform where a refurbished unit will be a decent bit cheaper, but still have a good bit of life left.

the_snooze 2y ago
For laptops specifically, the technical specs don't matter for most use cases, but the "quality-of-life" things absolutely do: screen resolution and brightness, keyboard and trackpad comfort, and battery life. It's hard for me to recommend most ~$500 Windows laptops when they skimp out on those things to lean into specs, while older-model Apple Silicon MacBook Airs are just a bit pricier but absolutely deliver on quality-of-life.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Yep, Apple likely got a bunch of lifetime customers during the decade long period they spent not leaning into specs in favor of putting every dollar into quality of life. Gamers and power users of course shunned them for so long saying, "you could get a better laptop for half the price!" but it's a testament to how good the build quality was that the full force of tech enthusiasts telling everyone not to buy it wasn't enough to sway people away. Everywhere but the low end the point has become kind of moot these days for the most part, Apple has beefy specs now and mid-high range Dells and Thinkpads have good build quality and QoL. I think speaker quality is the most noticeable difference between Apple and Dell where Dell just doesn't value it as anything other than an afterthought.
  - HWR_14 2y ago
    Thinkpads had excellent build quality for most of their history.
  - SR2Z 2y ago
    > Gamers and power users of course shunned them for so long saying, "you could get a better laptop for half the price!" but it's a testament to how good the build quality was that the full force of tech enthusiasts telling everyone not to buy it wasn't enough to sway people away. I've had two Intel MBP cook themselves to death within two years. The best laptop I've ever used was an Thinkpad X1 Carbon and I'll die on that hill - I find that Apple's build quality for a lot of stuff is ridiculously overrated and on-par with PCs that cost similarly. The lack of cooling is awful and the extra survivability of MacBooks is helped a lot by their status as shiny prestigious toys for people who don't care that much about using their computers. Obviously plenty of people get real work done on them, but I'm not sure that they're actually more reliable for the price.

valleyer 2y ago

Where do you buy the old machines from?

ivraatiems 2y ago
Mostly from local recyclers; also sometimes from folks on Craigslist who are looking to sell instead of recycle. Prices range dramatically based on the machine but $10 or less for a Windows XP machine is normal, $15-20 for a 4th-6th gen i3/i5, and it goes up from there. I have relationships with a few recyclers and also volunteer my time with a nonprofit that also offers refurbishing; I frequently buy the machines they don't have time to deal with for low prices. Recyclers have a huge advantage in getting their machines for free; I am too small-time to do that effectively. However, I take on the repair jobs they're not willing to do, so I get a pretty good deal on the inventory they have.

Pooge 2y ago

If you don't mind me asking: how did you first build your client-base? And even now, how do people know that you sell those products?

ivraatiems 2y ago
I started out with an eBay store, and expanded to Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist. I'd say about 50% of my sales are on eBay, 40% on FBM, and the remaining 10% through Craigslist - but it changes a lot based on time of year and what the product is. Windows XP machines almost exclusively sell through eBay; more expensive machines almost always sell through FBM. Most of my buyers buy one machine and are done, but a substantial subset are return customers. Return business is all about the usual stuff: Reputation, level of service, quality of the product. I have a few "regulars" who have bought 4+ machines from me, usually hobbyists or small business owners with a specific need. Having done this for a couple of years, I also now get return customers semi-frequently who bought something a while ago, like it, remember me, and seek me out again. I don't offer warranties or guarantees on items, but I'm aggressively inexpensive compared to the competition, and I operate on an informal "if I broke it, I fix it" policy. If I told you something was working and then later it breaks, I either fix it, swap it out, or replace the machine. I have a five-star reputation on Facebook Marketplace and 99.6% positive feedback on eBay as a result of this policy, so it works decently well.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  When you say WinXP machines, are you selling them with XP? I thought even the extended support had ended.
  - ivraatiems 2y ago
    Yes, they're sold with XP Delta Edition, which rolls up all the updates that exist into one package and adds some bells and whistles. All my XP product listings have a disclaimer that mentions XP is unsupported and shouldn't be used for everyday computing; I have on occasion had to steer away customers looking for a general-purpose machine to something else. The typical customer who does buy an XP machine is either doing retrogaming, running legacy hardware (industrial control systems and medical equipment are common), or has some other XP-specific need.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

I feel average person doesn't even use a computer/laptop anymore. Smartphone + TV covers most cases. iPad if you are a bit more advanced.

ivraatiems 2y ago
Exactly - but every now and then, they might need one for something, and a $60-100 laptop will do fine in that case.

heraldgeezer 2y ago

Buy refurb business laptops/desktops.

0xcoffee 2y ago

I only buy second hand laptops for myself, but I think the power/efficiency gains of modern cpu's should not be overlooked. The average person doesn't need a strong cpu, but the laptop should not burn their lap or run out of battery while they browse facebook.

mathgeek 2y ago
Oddly enough, very few folks I know use their laptops without being plugged in most of the time. I know I rarely do.

snakeyjake 2y ago

An E5530 with an i5-3210m, 16GB of RAM, and HD4000 graphics cannot play 1080p YouTube videos without dropping frames. I tried. My current garage computer, a i7-8700 with 64GB and UHD-630 graphics cannot play a YouTube video without dropping frames if the "Ambient Mode" (which adds a glowing drop shadow behind the video playback rectangle) YouTube option is turned on. A Raspberry Pi can. Smooth 1080p video playback using contemporary video codecs is a mandatory task for the average person with average needs. I like old computers. My home's NTP server is a Digital AlphaStation 200 4/233 from 1995 running Digital UNIX 4. I have so many old machines people think I am a little off, which I am. One of my coffee tables is a Sun Ultra 450. You will hear no arguments from me about keeping a system running as long as is practical. As is practical. A user with only $100 to spend is better served by a Raspberry Pi. Anyone who needs the computer to improve their education, further their life, or earn money, needs something that gives them the least amount of friction they can afford. And a Latitude E5530 is nothing but friction. From poor battery life to abysmal screen to slow performance to OS workarounds: friction.