4 ms·

Training on copyrighted works licensed for such use is inarguably conforming. Acquiring and using works without such license is just piracy. Whatever your stan

Training on copyrighted works licensed for such use is inarguably conforming. Acquiring and using works without such license is just piracy. Whatever your stand on piracy is, most individuals and businesses are not free to incorporate it into their projects. Normal people have faced significant penalties for piracy, and concientious business operators avoid it. Sure would be disappointing to all those people if there were suddenly a ruling that said "well, but it's okay that these guys did it because they're filthy rich and went real hard with it"

Workaccount2 2y ago
Again, models are not archives of data. Llama 3.1 70B is around 45GB is size, despite being trained on likely hundreds of petabytes of data. And before you say it, they are not fancy compression algo's either, the loss is so high they would be useless.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  What our society has to decide is whether these use cases are beneficial or detrimental to society at large, and adjust IP laws accordingly. Whether LLMs are archives of data, a compression method, or whatever else is just an unimportant technical implementation detail.
- swatcoder 2y ago
  Was this replied to the wrong comment? I'm not sure what it has to do with what I wrote. But here's another way to think about what I'm saying, in case you missed it: Personally, I'd love to download a complete archive of JSTOR. I'd train myself, and maybe even I could even use it as input into some product I mean to launch soon. JSTOR doesn't offer a license for that, at least not to me, but I'm sure I can scrape their site or find an archive elsewhere and make it happen anyway. Do you think I should do that? What do you think might happen if I tried?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- rmgk 2y ago
  Your argument is essentially: “I have downloaded and watched this movie, but because I cannot recreate the images, there was no copyright infringement involved”.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 93po 2y ago
    I would say it's more, I checked out a book from the library, read it, and learned some things about writing style and storytelling that I'm now going to apply to my own original works.
    - swatcoder 2y ago
      Libraries obey copyright, loaning out books for which they've acquired some right to lend to members. When I borrow a library book and read it that way, everything that happens is respecting the rights of the copyright's owner. That has nothing to do with how LLM's were trained. They were trained on countless works for which Meta, etc had acquired no legitimate right for use at all.
      - 93po 2y ago
        i dont know of a law that says you have to purchase a book to be legally allowed to read it
        triceratops 2y ago
        The legal owner of the book has to allow you to read it. And the legal owner can't make additional copies to allow you to read it.
        93po 2y ago
        If I find a book on a park bench and read it, am I breaking the law in terms of intellectual property?

Workaccount2 2y ago

Again, models are not archives of data. Llama 3.1 70B is around 45GB is size, despite being trained on likely hundreds of petabytes of data. And before you say it, they are not fancy compression algo's either, the loss is so high they would be useless.

dns_snek 2y ago
What our society has to decide is whether these use cases are beneficial or detrimental to society at large, and adjust IP laws accordingly. Whether LLMs are archives of data, a compression method, or whatever else is just an unimportant technical implementation detail.
swatcoder 2y ago
Was this replied to the wrong comment? I'm not sure what it has to do with what I wrote. But here's another way to think about what I'm saying, in case you missed it: Personally, I'd love to download a complete archive of JSTOR. I'd train myself, and maybe even I could even use it as input into some product I mean to launch soon. JSTOR doesn't offer a license for that, at least not to me, but I'm sure I can scrape their site or find an archive elsewhere and make it happen anyway. Do you think I should do that? What do you think might happen if I tried?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
rmgk 2y ago
Your argument is essentially: “I have downloaded and watched this movie, but because I cannot recreate the images, there was no copyright infringement involved”.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 93po 2y ago
  I would say it's more, I checked out a book from the library, read it, and learned some things about writing style and storytelling that I'm now going to apply to my own original works.
  - swatcoder 2y ago
    Libraries obey copyright, loaning out books for which they've acquired some right to lend to members. When I borrow a library book and read it that way, everything that happens is respecting the rights of the copyright's owner. That has nothing to do with how LLM's were trained. They were trained on countless works for which Meta, etc had acquired no legitimate right for use at all.
    - 93po 2y ago
      i dont know of a law that says you have to purchase a book to be legally allowed to read it
      - triceratops 2y ago
        The legal owner of the book has to allow you to read it. And the legal owner can't make additional copies to allow you to read it.
        93po 2y ago
        If I find a book on a park bench and read it, am I breaking the law in terms of intellectual property?