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I'm starting a PhD — essentially from tomorrow. It's a shame to see so much discouragement here, but at this point I'm no longer surprised. I also don't care be

I'm starting a PhD — essentially from tomorrow. It's a shame to see so much discouragement here, but at this point I'm no longer surprised. I also don't care because if left to my own devices I would do research anyway. In the kindest possible way: screw all of you!

j_bum 2y ago
Good luck with your PhD. Stay focused and enjoy this time, you will have a freedom to explore and study that’s almost unparalleled in post-grad life!
Over2Chars 2y ago
@xanderlewis I don't think anyone's comments are meant for you specifically, nor to discourage you or anyone particularly. If anything, take it all with a "grain of salt" and reflect on whether or not anyone you meet might resemble these comments. Hopefully, not your future self. Good luck in your career.
megaloblasto 2y ago
Most of these people have never been in a PhD program, so take their words with a grain of salt. If you have a good advisor, your passionate about your project, and you got some good funding, you'll have a wonderful time of exploring interesting ideas and becoming a competent researcher. Good luck!
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  So far, I seem to have all three. Let's see how it goes! Thanks.
- liontwist 2y ago
  All that’s true, and that is completely different than what’s advertised in this article.
j_maffe 2y ago
I also started my PhD last week and honestly from my talks with the people there thus far I'm much more optimistic than the general HN view of PhDs. You still have to be realistic however. Best of luck!
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  Great! The view of almost anything hard is gloomy online, probably because the conversation is dominated by those who either wish they'd tried and now have a chip on their shoulder or who made the wrong choice for them and are self-therapising by writing about it. Those who thrived in a PhD programme likely don't have a reason to bang on about their experience in quite so many words. > You still have to be realistic I'm expecting it to be very challenging. But that's the point — isn't it? Good luck to you too.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bowsamic 2y ago
I just left academia (after one three-year postdoc). Good riddance. For myself at least. I do think one can thrive in it, if you are a good salesman, don’t mind sucking up to those with money with lies and exaggerations, and don’t mind isolation
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  What kind of area were you in? It's hard to believe this 'sucking up to those with money' thing applies everywhere, though it's easier to imagine it applies in certain domains.
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    Quantum physics
    - xanderlewis 2y ago
      Could you be more specific about the pressure you felt to 'suck up' and 'lie'? I read this kind of thing often, but it's usually left quite vague. What exactly are people lying about? Physics (since it's supposed to be rigorous) seems like a less likely area than some to be driven by politics and trends, but I suppose I can imagine that competing research programmes and ideas benefit from a certain amount of marketing and smooth-talking of people with funding rather than relying purely on empirical evidence for their claims.
      - bowsamic 2y ago
        Physics absolutely is dominated by politics and trends. I was constantly expected to over exaggerate the impacts of my work and its possible applications, on both science in general and wider technology. For example, we used to always say that it had some impact in quantum computing even if it was a total lie, because that makes it way easier to get funding Physics may be in some sense more falsifiable, but it is absolutely subject to politics and social norms, both in how it lies about itself for money, and literally in which theories are chosen (since we can rarely empirically distinguish between them)
yodsanklai 2y ago
I don't think there's any reason to be discouraged. There's a lot of bias against PhDs for various reasons (good and bad). I have a PhD, got an academic position and then worked in various companies (startups, big tech company). These paths aren't exclusive. I'm glad I did the PhD. - it gave me time to work on a variety of interesting topics. In my company, I always feel rushed and don't have time to learn as much as I'd like to. - I had more than one career. Working only in industry after graduation would have been pretty sad I think. Not that it's bad but it's great to see something different - I developed some skills (for instance talking in front of audience, write scientific papers) and got to meet a lot of interesting people, and worked in different countries. I also learned that research wasn't for me but it was worth doing the PhD anyway. If I had to do it again, I would pick my topic more carefully, and go straight to industry rather than pursuing an academic position (which I actually didn't like). Also money wise, even though I'm not materialistic, the pay was too low. Certainly enough to live, but not enough to secure my future and retirement.
CaptainFever 2y ago
This is the best possible answer to Internet-based negativity! I wish you luck in your PhD :)
austinjp 2y ago
Care to share any details? What country are you studying in, and what's the subject area?
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  UK; more specifically Scotland. And mathematics; more specifically (algebraic) topology and (differential) geometry.
  - vaylian 2y ago
    The nice thing about mathematics is that there probably won't be any failed or non-reproducible experiments in the lab. That doesn't mean that a math PhD is going to be easy, but you should be aware that a lot of people will have a different idea of what you are doing if you don't tell them that your PhD is in math. Best of luck for your PhD! You might want to check out this ted talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/uri_alon_why_science_demands_a_leap_into_the_unknown https://www.ted.com/talks/uri_alon_why_science_demands_a_lea...
    - xanderlewis 2y ago
      Thanks! I hope so. Experiments (to the extent that there are experiments in mathematics, which arguably there very much are) often fail, but once they succeed they're usually fairly bulletproof, and reproducibility is barely even a concept.
  - leviliebvin 2y ago
    There is literally an ocean of difference between mathematics and ML (which seems to be what a lot of comments are talking about).
    - xanderlewis 2y ago
      Yes. Which is why I'm trying to push back a bit and say 'hang on... none of this is intrinsic to the PhD system'. Of course it's true that some PhDs — hell, some disciplines — are built to an embarrassing degree on BS and academic schmoozery, but there's no need to tar everyone with the same brush. It seems as though some commenters have difficulty conceiving of intellectual pursuits that don't involve 'data' and 'graphs'. I'm only very junior, though, so I don't have total confidence that I'm right. But I'm pretty certain I am.
monadINtop 2y ago
Good luck
samantha-wiki 2y ago
> if left to my own devices I would do research anyway. Then you're going to have a great time during your PhD, good luck and have fun! > screw all of you! "Disregard!" https://stepsandleaps.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/feynmans-breakthrough-disregard-others/ https://stepsandleaps.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/feynmans-brea...
JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
I've worked with PhDs all my life in various industries and it has always been a fun and enjoyable partnership. Have fun.
skalarproduktr 2y ago
Please consider that not everyone has the luxury of having (had) a PhD advisor who really cares. There's a wide spectrum, ranging from micromanagers, to people you see once during your PhD, to advisors that are genuinely great (intellectually and as a person) and caring. I wish you the best of luck for your PhD, a caring and supportive advisor, and great results!
fastneutron 2y ago
Disregard them. A lot of people fixate on the 1 in a billion celebrity exceptions like Musk, Thiel, Gates, Dyson, et al and go “look look you don’t need a PhD!” Yes, a highly motivated college dropout with a computer, a strong financial safety net, and the right social connections can be in the right place at the right time to seize big opportunities. Most people are not in that position. Many high-impact technologies need more than what just a computer can do. The main thing is to be self aware enough to know the path you’re on, what paths are available to you, and how to make the most of the connections and resources you have available to you. The second you start to get pigeonholed, wrap things up and move on.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  > The second you start to get pigeonholed... That seems like good advice.
  - etrautmann 2y ago
    Yes! Be very aware of your time and opportunity costs. It can be an amazing journey, struggles and all, but make sure to not get stuck long-hauling on something you’re not passionate about.
mattmight 2y ago
Good for you!
foobarbecue 2y ago
I did my PhD (mapping and studying the physics of caves in the ice on an antarctic volcano) purely for fun, and it was awesome. I hope you have a similarly rewarding experience. You will encounter unfair systems and unscrupulous people, and it will be frustrating. The data will be confusing as hell. My only advice is stay true to yourself. Maybe look into some of the new trends that could fix academia -- pre-registration, open access with public comment periods, reproducible code, etc. For inspiration, I cheer for crusaders like Data Colada who are trying to save the academic system.
- richrichie 2y ago
  That is the way. Not long ago, most of Science was done by rich people as a hobby. We need to get back to that system.
  - eloisant 2y ago
    Can't wait to read Elon Musk's Ph.D. on pointy rockets!
    - richrichie 2y ago
      Mendel did not have a PhD.
analog31 2y ago
"PhD Envy" is a real part of office politics outside of academia. Remember that the naysayers are just jockeying for their own status. On the one hand, you can ignore it. On the other, learning to manage it is a good starting point to navigating the social and political side of any career. Also, this is HN, which revolves around an occupation -- computer programming -- that is unique in terms of having high demand while remaining flexible about how and where people learn their skills. Not all fields are that way. I got a PhD in physics, in 1993, and have worked in industry since then. There are a couple of "negatives" that I still think are wroth pointing out: 1. PhD programs have very high attrition, and you bear most of the risk on your own shoulders. It's worth going in with eyes open, and knowing the risks. Getting out with your PhD may require some compromises along the way. I won't necessarily call them ethical compromises, but perhaps compromises to the (typically) idealistic views that many students start out with. 2. The little nub of specialized knowledge shown in TFA is your research, not your brain. You can do specialized research without becoming a specialized person if you want. This is a personal choice (academic freedom and all that). My dad, who also had a PhD and a good industry career, always told me to avoid hyper-specialization. Don't forget to learn how to code, just in case. ;-)
- liontwist 2y ago
  > PhD programs have very high attrition, and you bear most of the risk on your own shoulders. How many people do you know who “failed to meet the standard”? Zero. If you do the time and work for your professors you will get the reward. There is no risk. > PhD Envy" is a real part of office politics The most vocal critics are not bachelor degree holders, but those who did it and had a bad experience.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - eloisant 2y ago
    I wouldn't say it's about "failing to meet the standard". Sure, there is no exit exam you can fail, but there are still people dropping out of a PhD. It could be because you realize you don't really like research - that involves reading and writing a lot of papers, going to conferences not just tinkering. It could be because you had the wrong professor who failed to lead you and left you by yourself. It could be because you gave up at a low point, where most PhD student go through. It could be because after 4 or 5 years your professor keep saying "you're not ready yet" (I've seen that in humanities). So it's not really a problem of "not being good enough", but it definitely happens.
richrichie 2y ago
PhD now is an expensive way to signal that you can persevere longer than the average human. Unfortunately, that is not always a positive as many real life situations require you to make decisions under extreme paucity of information and reverse or change course at short notice. For such professions and roles it is a liability.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  I can see why you might think that; in some cases I'd agree. But there are parts of science — indeed of human knowledge in general — that are very difficult to break into if you don't have the opportunity a PhD affords. These disciplines also require perseverance longer than the average human. Without this system, we're not going to make fundamental progress. I'm pretty sure that without the research done by people with PhDs and people who don't give up at the first hurdle, we wouldn't be able to be sitting at our keyboards now having this conversation. Of course, it's not for everyone. Maybe it's not for most. But I don't think you should write all of it off as 'signalling'. Some research simply cannot be done without several years of focus, outside of industry or 'the real world'.

j_bum 2y ago

Good luck with your PhD. Stay focused and enjoy this time, you will have a freedom to explore and study that’s almost unparalleled in post-grad life!

Over2Chars 2y ago

@xanderlewis I don't think anyone's comments are meant for you specifically, nor to discourage you or anyone particularly. If anything, take it all with a "grain of salt" and reflect on whether or not anyone you meet might resemble these comments. Hopefully, not your future self. Good luck in your career.

megaloblasto 2y ago

Most of these people have never been in a PhD program, so take their words with a grain of salt. If you have a good advisor, your passionate about your project, and you got some good funding, you'll have a wonderful time of exploring interesting ideas and becoming a competent researcher. Good luck!

xanderlewis 2y ago
So far, I seem to have all three. Let's see how it goes! Thanks.
liontwist 2y ago
All that’s true, and that is completely different than what’s advertised in this article.

j_maffe 2y ago

I also started my PhD last week and honestly from my talks with the people there thus far I'm much more optimistic than the general HN view of PhDs. You still have to be realistic however. Best of luck!

xanderlewis 2y ago
Great! The view of almost anything hard is gloomy online, probably because the conversation is dominated by those who either wish they'd tried and now have a chip on their shoulder or who made the wrong choice for them and are self-therapising by writing about it. Those who thrived in a PhD programme likely don't have a reason to bang on about their experience in quite so many words. > You still have to be realistic I'm expecting it to be very challenging. But that's the point — isn't it? Good luck to you too.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

bowsamic 2y ago

I just left academia (after one three-year postdoc). Good riddance. For myself at least. I do think one can thrive in it, if you are a good salesman, don’t mind sucking up to those with money with lies and exaggerations, and don’t mind isolation

xanderlewis 2y ago
What kind of area were you in? It's hard to believe this 'sucking up to those with money' thing applies everywhere, though it's easier to imagine it applies in certain domains.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Quantum physics
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Could you be more specific about the pressure you felt to 'suck up' and 'lie'? I read this kind of thing often, but it's usually left quite vague. What exactly are people lying about? Physics (since it's supposed to be rigorous) seems like a less likely area than some to be driven by politics and trends, but I suppose I can imagine that competing research programmes and ideas benefit from a certain amount of marketing and smooth-talking of people with funding rather than relying purely on empirical evidence for their claims.
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      Physics absolutely is dominated by politics and trends. I was constantly expected to over exaggerate the impacts of my work and its possible applications, on both science in general and wider technology. For example, we used to always say that it had some impact in quantum computing even if it was a total lie, because that makes it way easier to get funding Physics may be in some sense more falsifiable, but it is absolutely subject to politics and social norms, both in how it lies about itself for money, and literally in which theories are chosen (since we can rarely empirically distinguish between them)

yodsanklai 2y ago

I don't think there's any reason to be discouraged. There's a lot of bias against PhDs for various reasons (good and bad). I have a PhD, got an academic position and then worked in various companies (startups, big tech company). These paths aren't exclusive. I'm glad I did the PhD. - it gave me time to work on a variety of interesting topics. In my company, I always feel rushed and don't have time to learn as much as I'd like to. - I had more than one career. Working only in industry after graduation would have been pretty sad I think. Not that it's bad but it's great to see something different - I developed some skills (for instance talking in front of audience, write scientific papers) and got to meet a lot of interesting people, and worked in different countries. I also learned that research wasn't for me but it was worth doing the PhD anyway. If I had to do it again, I would pick my topic more carefully, and go straight to industry rather than pursuing an academic position (which I actually didn't like). Also money wise, even though I'm not materialistic, the pay was too low. Certainly enough to live, but not enough to secure my future and retirement.

CaptainFever 2y ago

This is the best possible answer to Internet-based negativity! I wish you luck in your PhD :)

austinjp 2y ago

Care to share any details? What country are you studying in, and what's the subject area?

xanderlewis 2y ago
UK; more specifically Scotland. And mathematics; more specifically (algebraic) topology and (differential) geometry.
- vaylian 2y ago
  The nice thing about mathematics is that there probably won't be any failed or non-reproducible experiments in the lab. That doesn't mean that a math PhD is going to be easy, but you should be aware that a lot of people will have a different idea of what you are doing if you don't tell them that your PhD is in math. Best of luck for your PhD! You might want to check out this ted talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/uri_alon_why_science_demands_a_leap_into_the_unknown https://www.ted.com/talks/uri_alon_why_science_demands_a_lea...
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Thanks! I hope so. Experiments (to the extent that there are experiments in mathematics, which arguably there very much are) often fail, but once they succeed they're usually fairly bulletproof, and reproducibility is barely even a concept.
- leviliebvin 2y ago
  There is literally an ocean of difference between mathematics and ML (which seems to be what a lot of comments are talking about).
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Yes. Which is why I'm trying to push back a bit and say 'hang on... none of this is intrinsic to the PhD system'. Of course it's true that some PhDs — hell, some disciplines — are built to an embarrassing degree on BS and academic schmoozery, but there's no need to tar everyone with the same brush. It seems as though some commenters have difficulty conceiving of intellectual pursuits that don't involve 'data' and 'graphs'. I'm only very junior, though, so I don't have total confidence that I'm right. But I'm pretty certain I am.

monadINtop 2y ago

Good luck

samantha-wiki 2y ago

> if left to my own devices I would do research anyway. Then you're going to have a great time during your PhD, good luck and have fun! > screw all of you! "Disregard!" https://stepsandleaps.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/feynmans-breakthrough-disregard-others/ https://stepsandleaps.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/feynmans-brea...

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago

I've worked with PhDs all my life in various industries and it has always been a fun and enjoyable partnership. Have fun.

skalarproduktr 2y ago

Please consider that not everyone has the luxury of having (had) a PhD advisor who really cares. There's a wide spectrum, ranging from micromanagers, to people you see once during your PhD, to advisors that are genuinely great (intellectually and as a person) and caring. I wish you the best of luck for your PhD, a caring and supportive advisor, and great results!

fastneutron 2y ago

Disregard them. A lot of people fixate on the 1 in a billion celebrity exceptions like Musk, Thiel, Gates, Dyson, et al and go “look look you don’t need a PhD!” Yes, a highly motivated college dropout with a computer, a strong financial safety net, and the right social connections can be in the right place at the right time to seize big opportunities. Most people are not in that position. Many high-impact technologies need more than what just a computer can do. The main thing is to be self aware enough to know the path you’re on, what paths are available to you, and how to make the most of the connections and resources you have available to you. The second you start to get pigeonholed, wrap things up and move on.

xanderlewis 2y ago
> The second you start to get pigeonholed... That seems like good advice.
- etrautmann 2y ago
  Yes! Be very aware of your time and opportunity costs. It can be an amazing journey, struggles and all, but make sure to not get stuck long-hauling on something you’re not passionate about.

mattmight 2y ago

Good for you!

foobarbecue 2y ago

I did my PhD (mapping and studying the physics of caves in the ice on an antarctic volcano) purely for fun, and it was awesome. I hope you have a similarly rewarding experience. You will encounter unfair systems and unscrupulous people, and it will be frustrating. The data will be confusing as hell. My only advice is stay true to yourself. Maybe look into some of the new trends that could fix academia -- pre-registration, open access with public comment periods, reproducible code, etc. For inspiration, I cheer for crusaders like Data Colada who are trying to save the academic system.

richrichie 2y ago
That is the way. Not long ago, most of Science was done by rich people as a hobby. We need to get back to that system.
- eloisant 2y ago
  Can't wait to read Elon Musk's Ph.D. on pointy rockets!
  - richrichie 2y ago
    Mendel did not have a PhD.

analog31 2y ago

"PhD Envy" is a real part of office politics outside of academia. Remember that the naysayers are just jockeying for their own status. On the one hand, you can ignore it. On the other, learning to manage it is a good starting point to navigating the social and political side of any career. Also, this is HN, which revolves around an occupation -- computer programming -- that is unique in terms of having high demand while remaining flexible about how and where people learn their skills. Not all fields are that way. I got a PhD in physics, in 1993, and have worked in industry since then. There are a couple of "negatives" that I still think are wroth pointing out: 1. PhD programs have very high attrition, and you bear most of the risk on your own shoulders. It's worth going in with eyes open, and knowing the risks. Getting out with your PhD may require some compromises along the way. I won't necessarily call them ethical compromises, but perhaps compromises to the (typically) idealistic views that many students start out with. 2. The little nub of specialized knowledge shown in TFA is your research, not your brain. You can do specialized research without becoming a specialized person if you want. This is a personal choice (academic freedom and all that). My dad, who also had a PhD and a good industry career, always told me to avoid hyper-specialization. Don't forget to learn how to code, just in case. ;-)

liontwist 2y ago
> PhD programs have very high attrition, and you bear most of the risk on your own shoulders. How many people do you know who “failed to meet the standard”? Zero. If you do the time and work for your professors you will get the reward. There is no risk. > PhD Envy" is a real part of office politics The most vocal critics are not bachelor degree holders, but those who did it and had a bad experience.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- eloisant 2y ago
  I wouldn't say it's about "failing to meet the standard". Sure, there is no exit exam you can fail, but there are still people dropping out of a PhD. It could be because you realize you don't really like research - that involves reading and writing a lot of papers, going to conferences not just tinkering. It could be because you had the wrong professor who failed to lead you and left you by yourself. It could be because you gave up at a low point, where most PhD student go through. It could be because after 4 or 5 years your professor keep saying "you're not ready yet" (I've seen that in humanities). So it's not really a problem of "not being good enough", but it definitely happens.

richrichie 2y ago

PhD now is an expensive way to signal that you can persevere longer than the average human. Unfortunately, that is not always a positive as many real life situations require you to make decisions under extreme paucity of information and reverse or change course at short notice. For such professions and roles it is a liability.

xanderlewis 2y ago
I can see why you might think that; in some cases I'd agree. But there are parts of science — indeed of human knowledge in general — that are very difficult to break into if you don't have the opportunity a PhD affords. These disciplines also require perseverance longer than the average human. Without this system, we're not going to make fundamental progress. I'm pretty sure that without the research done by people with PhDs and people who don't give up at the first hurdle, we wouldn't be able to be sitting at our keyboards now having this conversation. Of course, it's not for everyone. Maybe it's not for most. But I don't think you should write all of it off as 'signalling'. Some research simply cannot be done without several years of focus, outside of industry or 'the real world'.