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I kinda agree with what you are saying on damage. It just doesn’t happen so it’s not really a problem anyone cares about. Cyclists don’t regularly cause $10000s

by r0m4n0 2y ago

I kinda agree with what you are saying on damage. It just doesn’t happen so it’s not really a problem anyone cares about. Cyclists don’t regularly cause $10000s in damage. If they hurt themselves, you use your own health insurance. On the other hand, my friend who was mowed down on his bike sharing the road was killed when someone had the sun in their eyes. That woman’s insurance had to pay hundreds of thousands in medical bills and damages. The same with my great aunt, killed in front of her house by a car. The same for my best friend who was killed in elementary school crossing a road. I think that’s 100x more common than the other way around. Traffic laws are in place to ensure each other’s safety and also reasonably get folks places. Cars are an extreme risk to peds and cyclists, not the other way around so yes, they have more rules and must follow them more strictly. My 3 year old toddler on her trike doesn’t need a license to ride down our neighborhood street because she isn’t risking anyone’s life but her own.

Retric 2y ago
There’s also ~100x more miles driven than biked. Bikes riders do cause a significant number of major medical incidents per mile and even some fatalities, but it simply doesn’t get much attention.
- Panzer04 2y ago
  And how many of these accidents are damage to others? The vast majority of serious bike accidents would cause damage only to the rider, I would guess. It's just not worth regulating or mandating anything.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Actually both are a problem. We got reflectors + bike helmet laws, and little else. At a minimum any vehicle going 15+ MPH should be making enough noise to get people’s attention. Personally I’d like to see insurance and licensing requirements on any e-bike with more than 50w of assistance. Because constantly going moderately faster means dramatically more danger as KE = V^2. So going a little bit faster and slightly less in control can be a lot more dangerous to others.
    - Panzer04 2y ago
      Ultimately, anything is better than driving around in a 2T vehicle. Making it harder to ride bikes increases the barrier to entry and hence discourages their use - and the alternative all too often is a car. Cars are so much more likely to kill people that I think you'd increase road casualties by making the alternatives harder to use. Yes, an ebike is faster, heavier and less safe than a conventional bike. No, an ebike is nowhere near as dangerous as a car, and in general I don't think they should be regulated. The current thresholds most places are setting (250W/25kph or thereabouts) are plenty conservative anyway. Tangentially, this is why it's also good to give bikes their own space. They are not pedestrians, and they shouldn't be mixing with pedestrian traffic. That's why they're on the road. They act more like a car than a pedestrian.
      - Retric 2y ago
        > give bikes their own space In a 2D layout there’s going to be an intersection between pedestrians, bikes, and buses etc. > anything is better than driving around in a 2T vehicle While your gut feeling is that discouraging use is harmful the statistics are more questionable. In the US, statistically E-bikes are roughly as dangerous as cars on a per mile basis. It’s got almost nothing to do with the bikes themselves and is almost totally related to the infrastructure and how people use them. The rates people on bikes ignore basic traffic safety and do things like speeding between stopped cars and then going through a red light is insane. Further, they are directly used around pedestrians with little concern for people’s safety. PS: There’s lots of ways to slice these numbers, but we don’t actually know the exact numbers for miles biked per year.
        Panzer04 2y ago
        I don't have evidence to back my claims, but it seems disingenuous to compare ebike and car miles. ebikes are predominantly used in busy areas with lots of other traffic, cars will rack up a ton of miles on highways with much reduced per-accident risk (albeit the accidents are probably more severe in that environment) If we're going to talk anecdotally, I think we need to read between the lines. Many locations in the US don't have good support for bike riders beyond telling them to ride on the road. This is going to encourage/force many to ride (unsafely) on the footpath because they don't want to share space with cars, and thus into conflict with pedestrians. I'd like to see a breakdown of ebike accidents between them and pedestrians vs them and cars. I would bet that the vast majority of accidents are into (or from) cars. Almost all of the fatal accidents are almost certainly from accidents with cars as well. You could try regulating them, but that's not going to fix the core issue that in many places they are expected to share space with cars, and cars are just plain more dangerous than everything else. Also, I will point out that even if bike riders are supposedly less law-abiding (maybe, I don't know), the consequences are almost entirely isolated to themselves for doing so. They are simply far less likely to hurt someone else. The same is not true for heavy motor vehicles.
_feus 2y ago
Thank you for engaging in an argument rather than just feeling attacked. Cycling accidents definitely happen, and they’ve become a lucrative industry. Just look up "bicycle injury attorney" and you will see tons of ads claiming that they "have recovered over 50 million for bicycle injury clients". The market here speaks for itself. Of course, a reasonable person doesn’t set out expecting to mow down a cyclist, but accidents happen despite the traffic laws designed to ensure everyone’s safety, and, to follow your example, a 3 y/o toddler doesn’t need a license to ride her trike down the street, but there’s nothing in the law, aside from common sense, stopping the child from continuing down the street and joining a major highway. At least "a multi-ton piece of steel" is visible and moves at the speed of traffic. What I don't understand, why is it accepted, that both pedestrians and motorists should "watch out for cyclists", yet there is absolutely no campaigns for cyclists to watch out for cars and pedestrians and to follow the law. The easiest solution, imho, is to make the requirements equal for all - if someone wants to use a public road, they should be licensed and insured.
- rpearl 2y ago
  Okay, I searched. Nearly all of these attorneys are for when you have been injured, on a bike, by a car. Because that's what happens a lot. Cars are deadly.
  - _feus 2y ago
    Why do cyclists need an injury attorney when motorists have insurance? Why are there so many attorneys offering this service? High demand? Is it because personal injury law is a well paying grift? Would any of these attorneys represent a driver if it was a cyclist fault? Much harder to collect from a private person than from insurance.
    - rpearl 2y ago
      Insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying and having an attorney represent you is almost a matter of course. But please continue theorizing that this zero effort google search you went in to knowing nothing about is instead evidence for a world in which there is a large market for attorneys forcing payment by cyclists causing significant damages. Next, have your last word because this conversation appears completely disingenuous and I will not be continuing it.

by r0m4n0 2y ago

Retric 2y ago

There’s also ~100x more miles driven than biked. Bikes riders do cause a significant number of major medical incidents per mile and even some fatalities, but it simply doesn’t get much attention.

Panzer04 2y ago
And how many of these accidents are damage to others? The vast majority of serious bike accidents would cause damage only to the rider, I would guess. It's just not worth regulating or mandating anything.
- Retric 2y ago
  Actually both are a problem. We got reflectors + bike helmet laws, and little else. At a minimum any vehicle going 15+ MPH should be making enough noise to get people’s attention. Personally I’d like to see insurance and licensing requirements on any e-bike with more than 50w of assistance. Because constantly going moderately faster means dramatically more danger as KE = V^2. So going a little bit faster and slightly less in control can be a lot more dangerous to others.
  - Panzer04 2y ago
    Ultimately, anything is better than driving around in a 2T vehicle. Making it harder to ride bikes increases the barrier to entry and hence discourages their use - and the alternative all too often is a car. Cars are so much more likely to kill people that I think you'd increase road casualties by making the alternatives harder to use. Yes, an ebike is faster, heavier and less safe than a conventional bike. No, an ebike is nowhere near as dangerous as a car, and in general I don't think they should be regulated. The current thresholds most places are setting (250W/25kph or thereabouts) are plenty conservative anyway. Tangentially, this is why it's also good to give bikes their own space. They are not pedestrians, and they shouldn't be mixing with pedestrian traffic. That's why they're on the road. They act more like a car than a pedestrian.
    - Retric 2y ago
      > give bikes their own space In a 2D layout there’s going to be an intersection between pedestrians, bikes, and buses etc. > anything is better than driving around in a 2T vehicle While your gut feeling is that discouraging use is harmful the statistics are more questionable. In the US, statistically E-bikes are roughly as dangerous as cars on a per mile basis. It’s got almost nothing to do with the bikes themselves and is almost totally related to the infrastructure and how people use them. The rates people on bikes ignore basic traffic safety and do things like speeding between stopped cars and then going through a red light is insane. Further, they are directly used around pedestrians with little concern for people’s safety. PS: There’s lots of ways to slice these numbers, but we don’t actually know the exact numbers for miles biked per year.
      - Panzer04 2y ago
        I don't have evidence to back my claims, but it seems disingenuous to compare ebike and car miles. ebikes are predominantly used in busy areas with lots of other traffic, cars will rack up a ton of miles on highways with much reduced per-accident risk (albeit the accidents are probably more severe in that environment) If we're going to talk anecdotally, I think we need to read between the lines. Many locations in the US don't have good support for bike riders beyond telling them to ride on the road. This is going to encourage/force many to ride (unsafely) on the footpath because they don't want to share space with cars, and thus into conflict with pedestrians. I'd like to see a breakdown of ebike accidents between them and pedestrians vs them and cars. I would bet that the vast majority of accidents are into (or from) cars. Almost all of the fatal accidents are almost certainly from accidents with cars as well. You could try regulating them, but that's not going to fix the core issue that in many places they are expected to share space with cars, and cars are just plain more dangerous than everything else. Also, I will point out that even if bike riders are supposedly less law-abiding (maybe, I don't know), the consequences are almost entirely isolated to themselves for doing so. They are simply far less likely to hurt someone else. The same is not true for heavy motor vehicles.

_feus 2y ago

Thank you for engaging in an argument rather than just feeling attacked. Cycling accidents definitely happen, and they’ve become a lucrative industry. Just look up "bicycle injury attorney" and you will see tons of ads claiming that they "have recovered over 50 million for bicycle injury clients". The market here speaks for itself. Of course, a reasonable person doesn’t set out expecting to mow down a cyclist, but accidents happen despite the traffic laws designed to ensure everyone’s safety, and, to follow your example, a 3 y/o toddler doesn’t need a license to ride her trike down the street, but there’s nothing in the law, aside from common sense, stopping the child from continuing down the street and joining a major highway. At least "a multi-ton piece of steel" is visible and moves at the speed of traffic. What I don't understand, why is it accepted, that both pedestrians and motorists should "watch out for cyclists", yet there is absolutely no campaigns for cyclists to watch out for cars and pedestrians and to follow the law. The easiest solution, imho, is to make the requirements equal for all - if someone wants to use a public road, they should be licensed and insured.

rpearl 2y ago
Okay, I searched. Nearly all of these attorneys are for when you have been injured, on a bike, by a car. Because that's what happens a lot. Cars are deadly.
- _feus 2y ago
  Why do cyclists need an injury attorney when motorists have insurance? Why are there so many attorneys offering this service? High demand? Is it because personal injury law is a well paying grift? Would any of these attorneys represent a driver if it was a cyclist fault? Much harder to collect from a private person than from insurance.
  - rpearl 2y ago
    Insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying and having an attorney represent you is almost a matter of course. But please continue theorizing that this zero effort google search you went in to knowing nothing about is instead evidence for a world in which there is a large market for attorneys forcing payment by cyclists causing significant damages. Next, have your last word because this conversation appears completely disingenuous and I will not be continuing it.