4 ms·

The irony is not lost to me, my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it My objection is bigger than that though, it is independ

The irony is not lost to me, my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it My objection is bigger than that though, it is independent of the merit or quality of the discourse , unwelcome discourse is impolite even if it is sound.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it This is a fair rule for you to live your life by. I think it crosses a line when someone insists it be one everyone follow. I personally got value from the comment about South Africa, and that’s despite knowing South Africans. (Their “lived experience” as non-military non-historian non-aviation South Africans is sort of irrelevant to questions of military aviation history.)
- manquer 2y ago
  Nobody is expecting anyone to follow someone else principles. You and OP should follow the principles that you feel best. It wasn’t a mere discussion on military aviation history, context matters, the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers A discussion about which one can knowledgeably have without any South African “lived experience,” apart from that of people then in that government. Like, a group of diplomats in Jburg could probably have a more-informed discussion of American politics and history than a random assortment of Americans.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
forming opinions should not be limited to lived experience because people (and states) interact in a shared world. Our personal opinions govern how we interact with others. The alternative is greater ignorance.
- manquer 2y ago
  Forming opinions should not need anything yes, however promoting or publishing that others will consume should be based on stronger foundations don’t you think ?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Not really. That is how humans learn and evolve. I think it is ok for people to be wrong. I think effort should go into honesty, humility, and open mindedness. I'm sure someone can have different insights from their lives experience which should be recognized, but that doesn't mean they should trump all else.
    - manquer 2y ago
      I don't disagree with the spirit of your argument and lived experience should not trump all, it should have only some weight and other points should qualify their statements clearly. We live in the age of disinformation, influencers, and anti-intellectualism that actively dismissive qualified sources, we have to put value in source quality, while not completely dismissing the ones without them.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it This is a fair rule for you to live your life by. I think it crosses a line when someone insists it be one everyone follow. I personally got value from the comment about South Africa, and that’s despite knowing South Africans. (Their “lived experience” as non-military non-historian non-aviation South Africans is sort of irrelevant to questions of military aviation history.)

manquer 2y ago
Nobody is expecting anyone to follow someone else principles. You and OP should follow the principles that you feel best. It wasn’t a mere discussion on military aviation history, context matters, the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers A discussion about which one can knowledgeably have without any South African “lived experience,” apart from that of people then in that government. Like, a group of diplomats in Jburg could probably have a more-informed discussion of American politics and history than a random assortment of Americans.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

forming opinions should not be limited to lived experience because people (and states) interact in a shared world. Our personal opinions govern how we interact with others. The alternative is greater ignorance.

manquer 2y ago
Forming opinions should not need anything yes, however promoting or publishing that others will consume should be based on stronger foundations don’t you think ?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Not really. That is how humans learn and evolve. I think it is ok for people to be wrong. I think effort should go into honesty, humility, and open mindedness. I'm sure someone can have different insights from their lives experience which should be recognized, but that doesn't mean they should trump all else.
  - manquer 2y ago
    I don't disagree with the spirit of your argument and lived experience should not trump all, it should have only some weight and other points should qualify their statements clearly. We live in the age of disinformation, influencers, and anti-intellectualism that actively dismissive qualified sources, we have to put value in source quality, while not completely dismissing the ones without them.