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> South Africa not doing so well currently? Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Is South Africa asking for help ? Either f

> South Africa not doing so well currently? Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Is South Africa asking for help ? Either for ideas or for money? Or is there genocide or other basic human rights abuses that we cannot but intervene. The presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them is where it is offensive not what is being said, people are more than capable of finding their own solutions to their own problems.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Unless it is group are South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? > presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them You're the only one who presumed this. (It's also presumptuous to assume that nobody outside your own context can be helpful to you.)
- manquer 2y ago
  > You're the only one who presumed this I didn’t say you can’t be helpful, but if not being asked that is the definition of presumption . > Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? It would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife or Mexicans having leadership conferences on how to prevent the raise of Trump . Same as how it feels for citizens when Elon Musk is doing now in UK, Germany or France Domestic intervention or influence by foreign actors no matter if well intentioned or not is inappropriate
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > if not being asked that is the definition of presumption If I want to have a discussion about South Africa, that's between me and whomever I'm speaking to. South Africa doesn't have a global veto on conversations about itself. > would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship, I don't see the issue. It's rude. But it may also be interesting or even instructive to their own situations.
    - manquer 2y ago
      > If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship It is not private though, we are not talking about diplomats doing it in confidential communications, nobody is objecting to that . What we are describing is equivalent to having a public conversation in the street in front of your home where you can see them having it
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > What we are describing is equivalent to having a public conversation in the street in front of your home where you can see them having it Still rude, but nothing more.
        manquer 2y ago
        > Rude, inappropriate, presumptuous, offensive . All degrees of the same thing ? And the degree in the eyes of the subject
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Your argument circles back to why the Chatham House Rule is gaining popularity. It enforces the figurative walls of your neighbour's house. > degree in the eyes of the subject Yes. The people actually having the conversation.
        manquer 2y ago
        Subject of the conversation not its participants. In a public conversation preferences of the subject i.e. who being talked about when discussing about them publicly matters more than the participants i.e who is doing the talking Period , done . if you disagree then you and I fundamentally different views on what is a civilized society and I hope my neighbors have my world view than yours.
graemep 2y ago
> Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why not? British people discussed the US election and Trump, lots of Americans express opinions on Britain, everyone expresses opinions about Russia and Ukraine, etc. I would say that people's opinions about countries they do not know first hand are often (if not usually) worthless, but I cannot imagine that in any of the above cases (or similar) many people would say they have no reason not to have opinions.
- manquer 2y ago
  > Why not? 500 years of slavery, colonialism, genocide and religion, propping up banana republics and dictators and countless other crimes in name of civilizing society or recently bringing freedom, fighting communism or spreading democracy is why not. Recent and ancient history shows time and again that the opinions become policy, governing everything from who and how aid is given to bombing anyone you don’t like . Policies change and principles abandoned with changing domestic political winds .

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Unless it is group are South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? > presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them You're the only one who presumed this. (It's also presumptuous to assume that nobody outside your own context can be helpful to you.)

manquer 2y ago
> You're the only one who presumed this I didn’t say you can’t be helpful, but if not being asked that is the definition of presumption . > Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? It would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife or Mexicans having leadership conferences on how to prevent the raise of Trump . Same as how it feels for citizens when Elon Musk is doing now in UK, Germany or France Domestic intervention or influence by foreign actors no matter if well intentioned or not is inappropriate
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > if not being asked that is the definition of presumption If I want to have a discussion about South Africa, that's between me and whomever I'm speaking to. South Africa doesn't have a global veto on conversations about itself. > would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship, I don't see the issue. It's rude. But it may also be interesting or even instructive to their own situations.
  - manquer 2y ago
    > If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship It is not private though, we are not talking about diplomats doing it in confidential communications, nobody is objecting to that . What we are describing is equivalent to having a public conversation in the street in front of your home where you can see them having it
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > What we are describing is equivalent to having a public conversation in the street in front of your home where you can see them having it Still rude, but nothing more.
      - manquer 2y ago
        > Rude, inappropriate, presumptuous, offensive . All degrees of the same thing ? And the degree in the eyes of the subject
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Your argument circles back to why the Chatham House Rule is gaining popularity. It enforces the figurative walls of your neighbour's house. > degree in the eyes of the subject Yes. The people actually having the conversation.
        manquer 2y ago
        Subject of the conversation not its participants. In a public conversation preferences of the subject i.e. who being talked about when discussing about them publicly matters more than the participants i.e who is doing the talking Period , done . if you disagree then you and I fundamentally different views on what is a civilized society and I hope my neighbors have my world view than yours.

graemep 2y ago

> Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why not? British people discussed the US election and Trump, lots of Americans express opinions on Britain, everyone expresses opinions about Russia and Ukraine, etc. I would say that people's opinions about countries they do not know first hand are often (if not usually) worthless, but I cannot imagine that in any of the above cases (or similar) many people would say they have no reason not to have opinions.

manquer 2y ago
> Why not? 500 years of slavery, colonialism, genocide and religion, propping up banana republics and dictators and countless other crimes in name of civilizing society or recently bringing freedom, fighting communism or spreading democracy is why not. Recent and ancient history shows time and again that the opinions become policy, governing everything from who and how aid is given to bombing anyone you don’t like . Policies change and principles abandoned with changing domestic political winds .