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How about South Africa not doing so well currently? It could be viewed through a racial lens but it means you can’t objectively discuss and hopefully help the s

How about South Africa not doing so well currently? It could be viewed through a racial lens but it means you can’t objectively discuss and hopefully help the situation. IMO this is exactly an example of where such closed rules may legitimately help. In the process of brainstorming you are bound to say something stupid or illegal but that’s the whole idea of brainstorming- to throw ideas and see what sticks

TMWNN 2y ago
>How about South Africa not doing so well currently? I recently read a book review that discussed South Africa today. One of the many points it made about the dire state of things is that the air force planes that flew overhead during Mandela's inauguration were, a decade later, completely inoperable. <https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-south-africas-brave-new-world https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-south-africas-brave-new-...>.
- manquer 2y ago
  Why is that shocking? It would be the case no matter how they do as a country As a long it was a white government there was lot of monetary support and knowledge transfer to South Africa, all the way to building nuclear weapons those collaborations stopped once the racial profile changed. overtime that means complex technologies like military aircraft which are difficult to keep flying anytime will stop working as South Africa was and is not equipped or can afford to maintain them on their own. no nation which flies f-35s can keep them flying if they are not in trump’s good graces now. This is why countries like china or India or few others who can afford to, invest heavily to build their domestic defense infrastructure.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    You're making the point for why people who are not South African can have interesting and meaningful conversations about South Africa. All while possibly expressing views that are incorrect but still interesting to consider and respond to.
    - manquer 2y ago
      The irony is not lost to me, my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it My objection is bigger than that though, it is independent of the merit or quality of the discourse , unwelcome discourse is impolite even if it is sound.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it This is a fair rule for you to live your life by. I think it crosses a line when someone insists it be one everyone follow. I personally got value from the comment about South Africa, and that’s despite knowing South Africans. (Their “lived experience” as non-military non-historian non-aviation South Africans is sort of irrelevant to questions of military aviation history.)
        manquer 2y ago
        Nobody is expecting anyone to follow someone else principles. You and OP should follow the principles that you feel best. It wasn’t a mere discussion on military aviation history, context matters, the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers A discussion about which one can knowledgeably have without any South African “lived experience,” apart from that of people then in that government. Like, a group of diplomats in Jburg could probably have a more-informed discussion of American politics and history than a random assortment of Americans.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        forming opinions should not be limited to lived experience because people (and states) interact in a shared world. Our personal opinions govern how we interact with others. The alternative is greater ignorance.
  - TMWNN 2y ago
    > Why is that shocking? It would be the case no matter how they do as a country From the review that I cited and you didn't bother to read: >A little over a decade later and that same South African Air Force was no longer able to fly. It wasn’t for lack of planes: new ones were procured from European arms manufacturers in an astonishingly expensive and legendarily corrupt deal. But once purchased the planes rotted from lack of maintenance and languished in hangers for lack of anybody able to fly them. Most of the qualified pilots and technicians had been purged, and most of the remainder had resigned. The air force did technically still have pilots, after all it would be a bit embarrassing not to, but those pilots were chosen for patronage reasons and didn’t technically have any idea how to fly a fighter jet. There's more, if you care to actually read it.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
aliasxneo 2y ago
> In the process of brainstorming you are bound to say something stupid or illegal but that’s the whole idea of brainstorming- to throw ideas and see what sticks That's a great point. One thing I've not enjoyed in modern corporate culture is the mental gymnastics required to usher out a statement that couldn't be interpreted as offensive to anyone on the planet. It's not like I'm _trying_ to be offensive, but as the number of rules governing speech increases, it becomes difficult to have conversations that are not laden with newspeak. Removing that cognitive load is bound to leave more brainpower for the task at hand.
manquer 2y ago
> South Africa not doing so well currently? Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Is South Africa asking for help ? Either for ideas or for money? Or is there genocide or other basic human rights abuses that we cannot but intervene. The presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them is where it is offensive not what is being said, people are more than capable of finding their own solutions to their own problems.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Unless it is group are South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? > presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them You're the only one who presumed this. (It's also presumptuous to assume that nobody outside your own context can be helpful to you.)
  - manquer 2y ago
    > You're the only one who presumed this I didn’t say you can’t be helpful, but if not being asked that is the definition of presumption . > Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? It would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife or Mexicans having leadership conferences on how to prevent the raise of Trump . Same as how it feels for citizens when Elon Musk is doing now in UK, Germany or France Domestic intervention or influence by foreign actors no matter if well intentioned or not is inappropriate
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > if not being asked that is the definition of presumption If I want to have a discussion about South Africa, that's between me and whomever I'm speaking to. South Africa doesn't have a global veto on conversations about itself. > would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship, I don't see the issue. It's rude. But it may also be interesting or even instructive to their own situations.
laidoffamazon 2y ago
> In the process of brainstorming you are bound to say something stupid or illegal but that’s the whole idea of brainstorming Illegal? I don't think that's true, not since ~1989 in South Africa anyway.

TMWNN 2y ago

>How about South Africa not doing so well currently? I recently read a book review that discussed South Africa today. One of the many points it made about the dire state of things is that the air force planes that flew overhead during Mandela's inauguration were, a decade later, completely inoperable. <https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-south-africas-brave-new-world https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-south-africas-brave-new-...>.

manquer 2y ago
Why is that shocking? It would be the case no matter how they do as a country As a long it was a white government there was lot of monetary support and knowledge transfer to South Africa, all the way to building nuclear weapons those collaborations stopped once the racial profile changed. overtime that means complex technologies like military aircraft which are difficult to keep flying anytime will stop working as South Africa was and is not equipped or can afford to maintain them on their own. no nation which flies f-35s can keep them flying if they are not in trump’s good graces now. This is why countries like china or India or few others who can afford to, invest heavily to build their domestic defense infrastructure.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  You're making the point for why people who are not South African can have interesting and meaningful conversations about South Africa. All while possibly expressing views that are incorrect but still interesting to consider and respond to.
  - manquer 2y ago
    The irony is not lost to me, my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it My objection is bigger than that though, it is independent of the merit or quality of the discourse , unwelcome discourse is impolite even if it is sound.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > my comments without lived experience are one reason why we shouldn’t do it This is a fair rule for you to live your life by. I think it crosses a line when someone insists it be one everyone follow. I personally got value from the comment about South Africa, and that’s despite knowing South Africans. (Their “lived experience” as non-military non-historian non-aviation South Africans is sort of irrelevant to questions of military aviation history.)
      - manquer 2y ago
        Nobody is expecting anyone to follow someone else principles. You and OP should follow the principles that you feel best. It wasn’t a mere discussion on military aviation history, context matters, the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > the implication here is post apartheid the government is corrupt and incompetent, it was corrupt before too just propped up better by foreign powers A discussion about which one can knowledgeably have without any South African “lived experience,” apart from that of people then in that government. Like, a group of diplomats in Jburg could probably have a more-informed discussion of American politics and history than a random assortment of Americans.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      forming opinions should not be limited to lived experience because people (and states) interact in a shared world. Our personal opinions govern how we interact with others. The alternative is greater ignorance.
- TMWNN 2y ago
  > Why is that shocking? It would be the case no matter how they do as a country From the review that I cited and you didn't bother to read: >A little over a decade later and that same South African Air Force was no longer able to fly. It wasn’t for lack of planes: new ones were procured from European arms manufacturers in an astonishingly expensive and legendarily corrupt deal. But once purchased the planes rotted from lack of maintenance and languished in hangers for lack of anybody able to fly them. Most of the qualified pilots and technicians had been purged, and most of the remainder had resigned. The air force did technically still have pilots, after all it would be a bit embarrassing not to, but those pilots were chosen for patronage reasons and didn’t technically have any idea how to fly a fighter jet. There's more, if you care to actually read it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

aliasxneo 2y ago

> In the process of brainstorming you are bound to say something stupid or illegal but that’s the whole idea of brainstorming- to throw ideas and see what sticks That's a great point. One thing I've not enjoyed in modern corporate culture is the mental gymnastics required to usher out a statement that couldn't be interpreted as offensive to anyone on the planet. It's not like I'm _trying_ to be offensive, but as the number of rules governing speech increases, it becomes difficult to have conversations that are not laden with newspeak. Removing that cognitive load is bound to leave more brainpower for the task at hand.

manquer 2y ago

> South Africa not doing so well currently? Unless it is group of South African expats why should we brainstorming? Is South Africa asking for help ? Either for ideas or for money? Or is there genocide or other basic human rights abuses that we cannot but intervene. The presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them is where it is offensive not what is being said, people are more than capable of finding their own solutions to their own problems.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Unless it is group are South African expats why should we brainstorming? Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? > presumption that we can solve or think about their problems better than them You're the only one who presumed this. (It's also presumptuous to assume that nobody outside your own context can be helpful to you.)
- manquer 2y ago
  > You're the only one who presumed this I didn’t say you can’t be helpful, but if not being asked that is the definition of presumption . > Why is this an inappropriate topic to discuss? It would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife or Mexicans having leadership conferences on how to prevent the raise of Trump . Same as how it feels for citizens when Elon Musk is doing now in UK, Germany or France Domestic intervention or influence by foreign actors no matter if well intentioned or not is inappropriate
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > if not being asked that is the definition of presumption If I want to have a discussion about South Africa, that's between me and whomever I'm speaking to. South Africa doesn't have a global veto on conversations about itself. > would be same as my neighbor discussing how to fix my problems with my wife If they're having a conversation in their house about your relationship, I don't see the issue. It's rude. But it may also be interesting or even instructive to their own situations.

laidoffamazon 2y ago

> In the process of brainstorming you are bound to say something stupid or illegal but that’s the whole idea of brainstorming Illegal? I don't think that's true, not since ~1989 in South Africa anyway.