4 ms·

Try to make me go to church with the Calvinists I'll flee the country too

by Boogie_Man 2y ago

timeon 2y ago
But why to most Calvinists influenced country?
- Boogie_Man 2y ago
  Probably because Texas had just recently become a state at that point and because of the Adelsverein and/or the number of ethnic Germans already there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelsverein https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelsverein https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Germans Das Yehaw
- nine_k 2y ago
  No, to the most explicitly religion-tolerant country. The US was really unusual in many regards at that time, compared to most of Europe.
  - willvarfar 2y ago
    Its funny because the original pilgrim fathers emigrated from the UK because they believed the UK too _tolerant_ of religious differences, and were worried their children would stray because of the temptation of a less strict doctrine. And a few generations in America later, and their children and children's children had indeed strayed. It's saying something about your religion if the only way you can get your kids to practice it is to isolate them!
mjdiloreto 2y ago
I appreciate the humor but this confuses me. I also read in a biography of Thomas Jefferson that he reviled Calvinists, going so far as to say their God is not the God of the Bible. I genuinely do not understand what is so reprehensible about Calvinist doctrine. There is just so much theological noise to parse through whenever I research it. Is pre-determination the biggest issue?
- EdwardDiego 2y ago
  Yeah, predeterminism, along with limited atonement, and perseverance of the saints, combines to form, IMO, a theology that is toxic at best, abusive at worst. If I can massively oversimplify, it's a theology where Jesus came to redeem only the Elect that God had already chosen to be saved while he had chosen to send everyone else to hell, so that the Elect could see His mercy (to them, not those poor bastards on the down escalator). And, perseverance of the saints is the icing on the cake, because it came to mean that if you ever disagreed with your church or its elders, well, you obviously weren't one of the Elect at all, enjoy the hellfire. So it's a great theology if you want to run a small, obviously better than everyone else, in-group of the Saved, vs. all the unsaved sinners God has already condemned. To see how perverse it could become in the extremes, look at the role it played in apartheid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Calvinism
- nine_k 2y ago
  Yes, the predestination. It removes from humans any agency in their own salvation, and any action of consequence in their lives. Everything is predetermined, the whole world is just a mechanical puppet show. It's an internally consistent view of the world. But it turns all the biblical events where humans appear to have agency into just silly scripted scenes, and it also turns the passion and self-sacrifice of Christ another scripted scene (with the Gethsemane episode thrown in for sadistic melodrama, apparently). I'd say that (strict) Calvinism is the least Christian of the various sects that have attained mainstream success. Paradoxically, it produced some very sober and ultimately successful approaches to the earthly life.
- Boogie_Man 2y ago
  Man, multiple people were ready to "go in on" Calvin which really wasn't what I intended. I was recently drafting a little ten part quick and dirty comparison of Christian denominational views on the most important/relevant theological concepts and reading about the Old Lutherans in this post really made me think about how seriously they took these things because they were literally true to them. It is either an admirable or a terrifying thing depending on your perspective. To answer your question as well as I can from their perspective, the reformed understanding of pneumatic presence vs their understanding of the sacramental union and being forced to participate in the eucharist in that heretical way, would quite literally be grounds for leaving the continent.

Try to make me go to church with the Calvinists I'll flee the country too

timeon 2y ago

But why to most Calvinists influenced country?

Boogie_Man 2y ago
Probably because Texas had just recently become a state at that point and because of the Adelsverein and/or the number of ethnic Germans already there. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelsverein https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelsverein https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Germans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Germans Das Yehaw
nine_k 2y ago
No, to the most explicitly religion-tolerant country. The US was really unusual in many regards at that time, compared to most of Europe.
- willvarfar 2y ago
  Its funny because the original pilgrim fathers emigrated from the UK because they believed the UK too _tolerant_ of religious differences, and were worried their children would stray because of the temptation of a less strict doctrine. And a few generations in America later, and their children and children's children had indeed strayed. It's saying something about your religion if the only way you can get your kids to practice it is to isolate them!

mjdiloreto 2y ago

I appreciate the humor but this confuses me. I also read in a biography of Thomas Jefferson that he reviled Calvinists, going so far as to say their God is not the God of the Bible. I genuinely do not understand what is so reprehensible about Calvinist doctrine. There is just so much theological noise to parse through whenever I research it. Is pre-determination the biggest issue?

EdwardDiego 2y ago
Yeah, predeterminism, along with limited atonement, and perseverance of the saints, combines to form, IMO, a theology that is toxic at best, abusive at worst. If I can massively oversimplify, it's a theology where Jesus came to redeem only the Elect that God had already chosen to be saved while he had chosen to send everyone else to hell, so that the Elect could see His mercy (to them, not those poor bastards on the down escalator). And, perseverance of the saints is the icing on the cake, because it came to mean that if you ever disagreed with your church or its elders, well, you obviously weren't one of the Elect at all, enjoy the hellfire. So it's a great theology if you want to run a small, obviously better than everyone else, in-group of the Saved, vs. all the unsaved sinners God has already condemned. To see how perverse it could become in the extremes, look at the role it played in apartheid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Calvinism
nine_k 2y ago
Yes, the predestination. It removes from humans any agency in their own salvation, and any action of consequence in their lives. Everything is predetermined, the whole world is just a mechanical puppet show. It's an internally consistent view of the world. But it turns all the biblical events where humans appear to have agency into just silly scripted scenes, and it also turns the passion and self-sacrifice of Christ another scripted scene (with the Gethsemane episode thrown in for sadistic melodrama, apparently). I'd say that (strict) Calvinism is the least Christian of the various sects that have attained mainstream success. Paradoxically, it produced some very sober and ultimately successful approaches to the earthly life.
Boogie_Man 2y ago
Man, multiple people were ready to "go in on" Calvin which really wasn't what I intended. I was recently drafting a little ten part quick and dirty comparison of Christian denominational views on the most important/relevant theological concepts and reading about the Old Lutherans in this post really made me think about how seriously they took these things because they were literally true to them. It is either an admirable or a terrifying thing depending on your perspective. To answer your question as well as I can from their perspective, the reformed understanding of pneumatic presence vs their understanding of the sacramental union and being forced to participate in the eucharist in that heretical way, would quite literally be grounds for leaving the continent.