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EVs are not the future. Change my mind. -- spoiler alert -- Hydrogen fuel cell powered are

ptman 2y ago
(green) hydrogen fuel cells have much worse energy efficiency than batteries. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...
jemmyw 2y ago
Why do we have to change your mind? What's special about you? Hydrogen is a pita for infrastructure and car manufacturers have talked about it far longer than the modern EV period yet it still hasn't gone anywhere. It would need a huge push from government and industry. Electricity infrastructure is already there, even if it needs upgrades and extra capacity, it's far easier to add to. EVs are here now and growing, hydrogen is still as limited as ever in most places.
thebruce87m 2y ago
The future is here and I am already driving an EV. The car park at work is around 15% EVs (and growing) and 0% hydrogen. It is convenient for me to charge at home, moving to hydrogen would require me to visit a refuelling station again - something that costs me time so there would have to be some other benefit. The possible benefit is faster refuelling, but on long journeys my EV can drive for 2-3 hours on a 20 minute charge while I eat which is 0 minutes extra.
- p0w3n3d 2y ago
  The amount of resources required to create an EV's battery, battery degradation, politics behind the mining, and importing of such resources, locations of factories whichbuild them, etc. is against it. 15% is because it was subsided and People we being scared by govt that they will disallow their cars from cities. And you're IT professional I guess so you're not the poorest person driving such. Those cars will become unrepairable in a few years. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/mapped-ev-battery-manufacturing-capacity-by-region/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/mapped-ev-battery-manufa...
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> Hydrogen fuel cell powered are been there, done that next! PS. it _might_ work for trucks
nasmorn 2y ago
Electric is already good enough. Any improvements will make overtaking it very hard. Energy cost advantage is just huge
perilunar 2y ago
A hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicle is an electric vehicle. The fuel cell outputs electricity that powers an electric motor.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  And needs a battery to provide responsive power while the electrolizer tops it up at a steady rate. Fuel cell cars were a great idea in a world where battery costs/weights were high. We no longer live in that world.
audunw 2y ago
Hydrogen and BEV received the same support and benefits in Norway, for many, many years now. BEVs have reached 90%+ market share. Hydrogen cars are all but dead here. Norway is just about a worst case scenario for EVs. People love driving hours and hours to their cabins high up in the mountain in winter (though the pre-heating of EVs is a significant benefit in winter). The winter is brutal on the range. Others drive across Europe all the way down to Croatia in summer (Norway is in Schengen so Norwegians routinely drive to other countries). Charging infrastructure in Europe is improving every year, so every year it’s easier and easier for BEVs to drive all over Europe. How are you going to convince me that Hydrogen can ever hope to catch up then? There may be some hypothetical hydrogen break through that could help. But then there are a dozen vastly improved EV batteries already in early/trial production. For hydrogen to catch up, BEV development needs to stop completely in its tracks right now, and stay there forever. We also need a giant leap in electrolysis and fuel cell efficiency for hydrogen, otherwise the operating costs are just too high compared to BEV. Hydrogen needs a miracle in other words. BTW, a hydrogen fuel station exploded near where I live. I heard it even several kilometers away. It smashed the windows of cars driving by. Luckily nobody was filling hydrogen. So yeah.. I’m certainly never buying a hydrogen car. Who the hell wants to go to some station to keep their car running? My car starts with a full tank every day. Do you go to a station to “fill” your phone?

(green) hydrogen fuel cells have much worse energy efficiency than batteries. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...

jemmyw 2y ago

Why do we have to change your mind? What's special about you? Hydrogen is a pita for infrastructure and car manufacturers have talked about it far longer than the modern EV period yet it still hasn't gone anywhere. It would need a huge push from government and industry. Electricity infrastructure is already there, even if it needs upgrades and extra capacity, it's far easier to add to. EVs are here now and growing, hydrogen is still as limited as ever in most places.

thebruce87m 2y ago

The future is here and I am already driving an EV. The car park at work is around 15% EVs (and growing) and 0% hydrogen. It is convenient for me to charge at home, moving to hydrogen would require me to visit a refuelling station again - something that costs me time so there would have to be some other benefit. The possible benefit is faster refuelling, but on long journeys my EV can drive for 2-3 hours on a 20 minute charge while I eat which is 0 minutes extra.

p0w3n3d 2y ago
The amount of resources required to create an EV's battery, battery degradation, politics behind the mining, and importing of such resources, locations of factories whichbuild them, etc. is against it. 15% is because it was subsided and People we being scared by govt that they will disallow their cars from cities. And you're IT professional I guess so you're not the poorest person driving such. Those cars will become unrepairable in a few years. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/mapped-ev-battery-manufacturing-capacity-by-region/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/mapped-ev-battery-manufa...

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> Hydrogen fuel cell powered are been there, done that next! PS. it _might_ work for trucks

nasmorn 2y ago

Electric is already good enough. Any improvements will make overtaking it very hard. Energy cost advantage is just huge

perilunar 2y ago

A hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicle is an electric vehicle. The fuel cell outputs electricity that powers an electric motor.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago
And needs a battery to provide responsive power while the electrolizer tops it up at a steady rate. Fuel cell cars were a great idea in a world where battery costs/weights were high. We no longer live in that world.

audunw 2y ago

Hydrogen and BEV received the same support and benefits in Norway, for many, many years now. BEVs have reached 90%+ market share. Hydrogen cars are all but dead here. Norway is just about a worst case scenario for EVs. People love driving hours and hours to their cabins high up in the mountain in winter (though the pre-heating of EVs is a significant benefit in winter). The winter is brutal on the range. Others drive across Europe all the way down to Croatia in summer (Norway is in Schengen so Norwegians routinely drive to other countries). Charging infrastructure in Europe is improving every year, so every year it’s easier and easier for BEVs to drive all over Europe. How are you going to convince me that Hydrogen can ever hope to catch up then? There may be some hypothetical hydrogen break through that could help. But then there are a dozen vastly improved EV batteries already in early/trial production. For hydrogen to catch up, BEV development needs to stop completely in its tracks right now, and stay there forever. We also need a giant leap in electrolysis and fuel cell efficiency for hydrogen, otherwise the operating costs are just too high compared to BEV. Hydrogen needs a miracle in other words. BTW, a hydrogen fuel station exploded near where I live. I heard it even several kilometers away. It smashed the windows of cars driving by. Luckily nobody was filling hydrogen. So yeah.. I’m certainly never buying a hydrogen car. Who the hell wants to go to some station to keep their car running? My car starts with a full tank every day. Do you go to a station to “fill” your phone?