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> At Meta, we have a principle of serving everyone. This can be achieved through cognitively diverse teams, with differences in knowledge, skills, political vie

by cbeach 2y ago

> At Meta, we have a principle of serving everyone. This can be achieved through cognitively diverse teams, with differences in knowledge, skills, political views, backgrounds, perspectives, and experiences. At last, a corporation acknowledges it's _cognitive_ diversity that matters. Most other forms of diversity are superficial, inherent human characterstics that are already equal under law, and make no difference to people's ability to use technology. I'm so relieved to see "DEI" die. With two young boys who are white, heterosexual and normal in every way, I found it disturbing to know they'd be discriminated against in the workplace. I knew this discrimination existed because I've been a hiring manager and had HR explicitly tell me I needed to focus on hiring female technologist. Luckily I left that job and am now at a smaller company that doesn't discriminate on gender) However, most large corporates I've worked at have pushed the DEI agenda (with the 'E' standing for "equity" as opposed to the more ethical "equality"). There may have been historic discrimination against women and other minorities, but I have NEVER witnessed any such discrimination in the present day. We must avoid replacing one form of immoral discrimination with another form of immoral discrimination.

eapressoandcats 2y ago
Are you serious that you’ve never witnessed any discrimination against women or minorities?
- cbeach 2y ago
  I have witnessed: * co-workers being extremely wary of offending them in any way * superiors telling me to hire them * corporate literature that focuses on promoting their interests * corporate networks that grant them additional networking and social opportunities I have worked at a hedge fund, market data company, American and Australian investment banks and a travel startup. I have NEVER witnessed racism or sexism in the workplace. If I ever did, I would find it shocking and very weird.
  - eapressoandcats 2y ago
    Maybe try talking to this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 If you’re not witnessing it then that’s only because you’re not noticing it, unless you think a large chunk of the population is just a bunch of liars. Also you need to explain why there is a huge racial imbalance in elite jobs. Also you need to explain literal blinded studies demonstrating racism in callbacks based on resumes. None of it excuses reverse discrimination but denying it is happening is just not based in reality.
    - cbeach 2y ago
      > you need to explain why there is a huge racial imbalance in elite jobs. Well, that's easily explained by demographic history. Here in the UK, we only had mass immigration from the Middle East and Africa within the last couple of generations, and many of the people who came were emmigrating from countries with low rates of literacy. We wouldn't expect white-collar roles to match the demographic makeup of the population in tight lock-step. We cannot ignore the differences in economic and educational background, and the time it takes to attain elite high responsibility jobs in terms of career tenure. Luckily, children of ethnic minority immigrants are performing well in the UK school system, so hopefully over a generation or two we should naturally see the trend improve. But while our population is expanding at approx 900K per year, with many from low-income countries with poor education systems, we will continue to see demographic imbalances in elite roles. > you need to explain literal blinded studies demonstrating racism in callbacks based on resumes. I don't discount that racism exists. I simply pointed out that the only racism and sexism I've experienced in the workplace has been _against_ white people, as opposed to _perpetrated by_ white people. DEI, by lowering the bar for certain genders and races, is actually promoting prejudice against those groups. It sends the message that these people need a leg up.
      - cycrutchfield 2y ago
        How would you experience racism and sexism in the workplace that is not targeted at you?
    - 2y ago
- blindriver 2y ago
  In any company of a large size, you will always get bad people. But many companies in tech have a lot of good people that don't discriminate. I worked at Uber and it was one of the most progressive companies I've seen. Yes, Susan Fowler's experience was real and disgusting and should never have happened. But I know a dozen females personally that said that working at Uber was their best job ever and they never felt discriminated against ever.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  To the degree that I've seen non-URM males get discriminated against? Not even remotely. Here's some discrimination I've witnessed. * I've worked at companies where the first thing we did was mark resumes by the candidate's demographics. Two stars for "double diverse" URM women (recruiters' words, not mine), one star for URM males and non-URM women, and "ND" for Asian Males. "Negative diversity". * I worked at a company that cordoned off a segment of headcount and made it only available to women and URM candidates. * I worked at companies that docked people's pay if they didn't hit a diversity quota. Remember a "bonus" is just another word for a penalty. If I have $X bonus conditional on reaching Y% women that's the same as a penalty if you don't hit the quota. I'm sure women have had co-workers assume they weren't developers, or have meetings where they were talked over, etc. But not once have I witnessed a company deliberately try to set up a policy to disadvantage a woman or URM candidate. Whereas for non-URM men, it has been the norm rather than the exception.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
> two young boys who are white, heterosexual and normal in every way, I found it disturbing to know they'd be discriminated against in the workplace. At least they will always feel welcome in their own country. I had that feeling about 10 years ago and I miss it.
- cbeach 2y ago
  I don't think that's true. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "pale, male and stale" as a racist, sexist, ageist slur in the UK - against its own native population.
  - energy123 2y ago
    Internet Research Agency bots on social media
starchild3001 2y ago
yes, it turned out to be a scam to conflate "diversity in thought" with skin color or gender. The term "diversity" became too toxic. The term "equity" was morally dubious / wrong to begin with. Inclusivity is still respectable. So, in the end, DEI must die... Meta is right to start deemphasizing it. On a semi-related note, I believe they should still moderate lies and mythologies on their platform. 2016 was a horrible time to be a facebook user. We don't want to go back to those days where facebook is toxic mix of clicky lies, untruths and manipulation.
fzeroracer 2y ago
> There may have been historic discrimination against women and other minorities, but I have NEVER witnessed any such discrimination in the present day. You are posting at the same time as Meta literally saying that it's okay to sling slurs at specific minorities and them only. Where multiple states in the US are banning abortion and local state governments are trying to ban gay marriage. Where the US president is outright threatening to strip people of citizenship so they can be deported. Even from personal experience as a white straight man I have had people fire slurs at me or try to stop me from entering the male restroom because I have long hair and they assume long hair means I'm either gay or transgender.

by cbeach 2y ago

eapressoandcats 2y ago

Are you serious that you’ve never witnessed any discrimination against women or minorities?

cbeach 2y ago
I have witnessed: * co-workers being extremely wary of offending them in any way * superiors telling me to hire them * corporate literature that focuses on promoting their interests * corporate networks that grant them additional networking and social opportunities I have worked at a hedge fund, market data company, American and Australian investment banks and a travel startup. I have NEVER witnessed racism or sexism in the workplace. If I ever did, I would find it shocking and very weird.
- eapressoandcats 2y ago
  Maybe try talking to this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23669188 If you’re not witnessing it then that’s only because you’re not noticing it, unless you think a large chunk of the population is just a bunch of liars. Also you need to explain why there is a huge racial imbalance in elite jobs. Also you need to explain literal blinded studies demonstrating racism in callbacks based on resumes. None of it excuses reverse discrimination but denying it is happening is just not based in reality.
  - cbeach 2y ago
    > you need to explain why there is a huge racial imbalance in elite jobs. Well, that's easily explained by demographic history. Here in the UK, we only had mass immigration from the Middle East and Africa within the last couple of generations, and many of the people who came were emmigrating from countries with low rates of literacy. We wouldn't expect white-collar roles to match the demographic makeup of the population in tight lock-step. We cannot ignore the differences in economic and educational background, and the time it takes to attain elite high responsibility jobs in terms of career tenure. Luckily, children of ethnic minority immigrants are performing well in the UK school system, so hopefully over a generation or two we should naturally see the trend improve. But while our population is expanding at approx 900K per year, with many from low-income countries with poor education systems, we will continue to see demographic imbalances in elite roles. > you need to explain literal blinded studies demonstrating racism in callbacks based on resumes. I don't discount that racism exists. I simply pointed out that the only racism and sexism I've experienced in the workplace has been _against_ white people, as opposed to _perpetrated by_ white people. DEI, by lowering the bar for certain genders and races, is actually promoting prejudice against those groups. It sends the message that these people need a leg up.
    - cycrutchfield 2y ago
      How would you experience racism and sexism in the workplace that is not targeted at you?
  - 2y ago
blindriver 2y ago
In any company of a large size, you will always get bad people. But many companies in tech have a lot of good people that don't discriminate. I worked at Uber and it was one of the most progressive companies I've seen. Yes, Susan Fowler's experience was real and disgusting and should never have happened. But I know a dozen females personally that said that working at Uber was their best job ever and they never felt discriminated against ever.
Manuel_D 2y ago
To the degree that I've seen non-URM males get discriminated against? Not even remotely. Here's some discrimination I've witnessed. * I've worked at companies where the first thing we did was mark resumes by the candidate's demographics. Two stars for "double diverse" URM women (recruiters' words, not mine), one star for URM males and non-URM women, and "ND" for Asian Males. "Negative diversity". * I worked at a company that cordoned off a segment of headcount and made it only available to women and URM candidates. * I worked at companies that docked people's pay if they didn't hit a diversity quota. Remember a "bonus" is just another word for a penalty. If I have $X bonus conditional on reaching Y% women that's the same as a penalty if you don't hit the quota. I'm sure women have had co-workers assume they weren't developers, or have meetings where they were talked over, etc. But not once have I witnessed a company deliberately try to set up a policy to disadvantage a woman or URM candidate. Whereas for non-URM men, it has been the norm rather than the exception.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

> two young boys who are white, heterosexual and normal in every way, I found it disturbing to know they'd be discriminated against in the workplace. At least they will always feel welcome in their own country. I had that feeling about 10 years ago and I miss it.

cbeach 2y ago
I don't think that's true. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "pale, male and stale" as a racist, sexist, ageist slur in the UK - against its own native population.
- energy123 2y ago
  Internet Research Agency bots on social media

starchild3001 2y ago

yes, it turned out to be a scam to conflate "diversity in thought" with skin color or gender. The term "diversity" became too toxic. The term "equity" was morally dubious / wrong to begin with. Inclusivity is still respectable. So, in the end, DEI must die... Meta is right to start deemphasizing it. On a semi-related note, I believe they should still moderate lies and mythologies on their platform. 2016 was a horrible time to be a facebook user. We don't want to go back to those days where facebook is toxic mix of clicky lies, untruths and manipulation.

fzeroracer 2y ago

> There may have been historic discrimination against women and other minorities, but I have NEVER witnessed any such discrimination in the present day. You are posting at the same time as Meta literally saying that it's okay to sling slurs at specific minorities and them only. Where multiple states in the US are banning abortion and local state governments are trying to ban gay marriage. Where the US president is outright threatening to strip people of citizenship so they can be deported. Even from personal experience as a white straight man I have had people fire slurs at me or try to stop me from entering the male restroom because I have long hair and they assume long hair means I'm either gay or transgender.