6 ms·

I am Wasq'u (a tribe in the PNW), I am connected to my tribe, and I am one of a handful of remaining speakers of the language. I am really tired of being caught

by antics 2y ago

I am Wasq'u (a tribe in the PNW), I am connected to my tribe, and I am one of a handful of remaining speakers of the language. I am really tired of being caught in the maw of people fighting about my identity, what I am owed, and to some extent what place my identity has in society. To the pro-DEI crowd: I have some hard truths for you. Actual change requires commitment and focus over an extremely long period of time. That means you have to choose probably 1 cause among the many worthy causes, and then invest in it instead of the others. You can't do everything. The problems that afflict my community are running water, drug addiction, lack of educational resources, and secular trends have have made our traditional industries obsolete. I am not saying that land acknowledgements and sports teams changing their names from racial slurs are negative developments, but these things are not even in my list of top 100 things to get done. We all want to help, but to have an impact you must have courage to say no to the vast majority of social issues you could care about, and then commit deeply to the ones you decide to work on. Do not be a tourist. I don't expect everyone to get involved in Indian affairs, but I do expect you to be honest with me about whether you really care. Don't play house or go through motions to make yourself feel better. When you do commit to some issue, understand that the biggest contributions you can make are virtually always not be marketable or popular—if they are, you take that as a sign that you need to evaluate whether they really are impactful. Have the courage to make an assessment about what will actually have an impact on the things you care about, and then follow through with them. To the anti-DEI crowd: focus on what you can build together instead of fighting on ideological lines. The way out for many minority communities in America is substantial economic development. In my own communities, I have seen economic development that has given people the ability to own their own destiny. It has changed the conversation from a zero sum game to one where shared interests makes compromise possible. If you want to succeed you need to understand that your fate is shared with those around you. In-fighting between us is going to make us less competitive on the world stage, which hurts all of us.

algebra-pretext 2y ago
> “Always remember that the people are not fighting for ideas, nor for what is in men’s minds. The people fight and accept the sacrifices demanded by the struggle in order to gain material advantages, to live better and in peace, to benefit from progress, and for the better future of their children. National liberation, the struggle against colonialism, the construction of peace, progress and independence are hollow words devoid of any significance unless they can be translated into a real improvement of living conditions.” - Amílcar Cabral
akoboldfrying 2y ago
>to have an impact you must have courage to say no to the vast majority of social issues you could care about, and then commit deeply to the ones you decide to work on. I strongly agree, but sadly I think what you're saying here is probably almost incomprehensible to a broad swathe of middle-class white Americans, to whom being seen to be outwardly supportive of every DEI-ish cause has essentially become something like personal hygiene -- a thing you do perfunctorily and without thinking. It's just "what you do", "what a civilised person does", etc. I'd be interested to hear more about what you have seen work and not work for economic development in these communities.
- antics 2y ago
  In our area, it is mostly resorts and casinos. Economic development gives everyone in the area jobs and opportunities. This has changed the picture from "Indians begging the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and local government for resources" to "we have a robust economic engine which is a critical part of the greater surrounding community, and which we'd mostly all like to succeed, but need to work through details on." It's not perfect and there's still conflict but it's much easier to work together in the latter situation.
  - myroon5 2y ago
    casinos 'changed the conversation from a zero sum game'?
getnormality 2y ago
Thank you for this wonderful message. As a fellow American, I can see you have our common interests at heart, as well as those of your tribe. That is a model for all of us.
- antics 2y ago
  Thank you for the response, I am very glad to hear that came through. I think these discussions tend to be fundamentally pessimistic towards the future and I really don't think they need to be. We control our destiny, and we can make it whatever we wish.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
> To the anti-DEI crowd: focus on what you can build together The problem with DEI-as-implemented is that it often not only contains overt discrimination against a group (based on a protected class), but also prohibits any criticism of this. When someone is being discriminated against, not subtly or silently but explicitly, intentionally and overtly, and then punished for daring to complain about it, that leads to a lot of resentment (both by the people directly affected and by other members of the same class that observe both the discrimination and the silencing). I'd say that resentment is justified; unfortunately, I suspect the backlash will primarily hit the people that the DEI policies were supposed to help, rather than the perpetrators of the discrimination.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  > that leads to a lot of resentment (both by the people directly affected and by other members of the same class that observe both the discrimination and the silencing). Agreed. This is the fundamental flaw of a lot of social theories borne out of academia when they land in the real world. They thrive in an academic world where hierarchy is bought into by students eagerly and are transplanted into a world where people must accept hierarchy to survive. > I'd say that resentment is justified Resentment never makes anything better, no matter how justified. Unfortunately.
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    That resentment drove people to vote for powers that forced FB and other bigtech to reduce the discriminations that were creating those resentments I’d say it did make things better.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      It wasn't the driving force of that at all, but I'll rephrase if you want to be pedantic. Resentment is rarely ever only channeled in good ways
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
Viliam1234 2y ago
> lack of educational resources Could you please explain this part? I am not sure how you meant it. Is the main problem that the resources are not in the language of your tribe? Or is that a lack of educational resources regardless of language (e.g. simply not enough textbooks to give to each child)? What kind of educational resources do you wish you had?
- sfifs 2y ago
  Interesting comment... I keep getting surprised by implicit first world assumptions on HN. I'm not the OP but you could consider hypothetically as an example, would great teachers largely choose to settle in PNW?
  - macrocosmos 2y ago
    Yes they would. It’s a beautiful part of the country. And I know great teachers that live there.
    - antics 2y ago
      Unfortunately, our reservation is in central Oregon, which is less desirable. Even if we were not forced out of the ancestral homeland (what is now called the Columbia River Gorge), I'm not sure that would have been better. Although pretty, it is very out of the way, and people do not know that it is in the same class as the Yangtze (say).
  - Viliam1234 2y ago
    Not sure where you see assumptions. There are many possible problems, and I don't know OP's situation, which is why I was asking what is the main problem there. Sometimes it's teachers. Sometimes it's textbooks. Sometimes it's not having a roof above your head. Sometimes the kids are starving and can't focus on the lessons. Sometimes it's different language. > would great teachers largely choose to settle in PNW? One possible reason is that some of them could be born there. Again, this differs between communities. Some of them respect their smartest members. Some kick them out.
- 2y ago
Avicebron 2y ago
> "The problems that afflict my community are running water, drug addiction, lack of educational resources, and secular trends have have made our traditional industries obsolete" So in my rural, predominantly white "Non DEI target" part of the country, this is the problem too except when these people apply to hundreds of jobs in software engineering they get crickets.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  Well, in the non-DEI world, we'll soon find out if the reason this happens was solely because of policies or if low educational attainment seeps into one's college, ones preparedness for a job, one's ability to get a job, etc.
- antics 2y ago
  Well, just one data point for you (YMMV), but in "DEI" contexts I've been a part of, class diversity did actually come up somewhat regularly. I would not say corp diversity efforts I saw were all that successful in staffing that demographic—but they also weren't that successful in staffing minorities either. Mostly I think this reflects a consistent disconnect between what people wanted corp diversity efforts to be, and what they really were. With all that said I do have a story of my own like this. In 2013 or so I wrote some stuff about spam detection and a Twitter engineer reached out about a job. I was an outgoing new grad from the University of Utah. When I got through with the loop the recruiter said, "How did you get here, we don't get many candidates from Utah." I still wonder what they wanted me to think when I heard that. What I actually felt was deeply out of place and uncomfortable. And it has affected every hiring process I've been apart of since.
- KaiserPro 2y ago
  but you do see the problem here. Its not the "DEI targets" that are at fault, its the systematic roll back of any protection for any poor community. The same people that are saying "a new way forward" or "make america great again" failed to put any money to help. Your community doesn't produce anything that those funding congress care about, means that you get nothing.
- gunsle 2y ago
bastardoperator 2y ago
I don't have to be invested in a cause to know that diversity in problem solving can be a key component to success hence global technology companies, or that promoting the ideas of equity and inclusion are things most humans can benefit from. DEI is not about change or solving a particular problem, it's about awareness of perspective and seeking to understand others.
- antics 2y ago
  To be clear I am not arguing for or against working with a bunch of people from totally different backgrounds, demographics, etc. I am arguing that, because we can't do everything we should decide what really matters to us, commit to it in the long term, and invest in it to the exclusion of the many other completely worthy causes. I know it sounds obvious, but at least for the communities I belong to, the industry committed shallowly and as a result accomplished very little.
  - bastardoperator 2y ago
    It sounds like you're confusing affirmative action with DEI. A broader perspective benefits everyone. Different lived experiences contribute to a broader perspective. It's not about checking boxes or filling quotas and it's not specific to any particular group.
    - antics 2y ago
      I’m happy to continue this conversation, but I think we’re not on the same page about what I am saying, which makes it hard to say how to proceed. To your specific point here, I’m not sure what this has to do with the discussion.
pepinator 2y ago
[flagged]
- antics 2y ago
  Oh I think we have very good empirical reasons to believe that’s not true. If this was indeed common knowledge, DEI as a movement would not be mired with the issues it has, specifically relating to performative activism and focus. If that’s not good enough for you, we can evaluate your claim further by surveying people and seeing if this advice is actually well-known. I encourage you to try this yourself, I think what you’ll find is that the vast majority of people who participate in these systems find what I’ve written surprising and unintuitive. And that’s one reason why this comment has 250 upvotes, which is more than almost all HN stories on a given day. YMMV, happy to hear about how this turns out for you.
gunsle 2y ago
lol I have been saying similar things here in Minnesota for years. A lot of extremely liberal, wealthy progressives like to try to change landmarks around here to the native language version. I have no issue with this at face value. What I do have an issue with, is these people acting like this is doing anything to help the local Native American tribes. Why would they care if a lake they probably never visit and a flag they barely look at are changed? Especially when they weren’t even asking for it? What does that do at all to actually help our local Native communities struggling with the things you listed above? Absolutely nothing. It’s all a parade to make these people feel like they’re doing something while having to sacrifice absolutely nothing from their own lives. It’s honestly pathetic.

by antics 2y ago

algebra-pretext 2y ago

> “Always remember that the people are not fighting for ideas, nor for what is in men’s minds. The people fight and accept the sacrifices demanded by the struggle in order to gain material advantages, to live better and in peace, to benefit from progress, and for the better future of their children. National liberation, the struggle against colonialism, the construction of peace, progress and independence are hollow words devoid of any significance unless they can be translated into a real improvement of living conditions.” - Amílcar Cabral

akoboldfrying 2y ago

>to have an impact you must have courage to say no to the vast majority of social issues you could care about, and then commit deeply to the ones you decide to work on. I strongly agree, but sadly I think what you're saying here is probably almost incomprehensible to a broad swathe of middle-class white Americans, to whom being seen to be outwardly supportive of every DEI-ish cause has essentially become something like personal hygiene -- a thing you do perfunctorily and without thinking. It's just "what you do", "what a civilised person does", etc. I'd be interested to hear more about what you have seen work and not work for economic development in these communities.

antics 2y ago
In our area, it is mostly resorts and casinos. Economic development gives everyone in the area jobs and opportunities. This has changed the picture from "Indians begging the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and local government for resources" to "we have a robust economic engine which is a critical part of the greater surrounding community, and which we'd mostly all like to succeed, but need to work through details on." It's not perfect and there's still conflict but it's much easier to work together in the latter situation.
- myroon5 2y ago
  casinos 'changed the conversation from a zero sum game'?

getnormality 2y ago

Thank you for this wonderful message. As a fellow American, I can see you have our common interests at heart, as well as those of your tribe. That is a model for all of us.

antics 2y ago
Thank you for the response, I am very glad to hear that came through. I think these discussions tend to be fundamentally pessimistic towards the future and I really don't think they need to be. We control our destiny, and we can make it whatever we wish.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

> To the anti-DEI crowd: focus on what you can build together The problem with DEI-as-implemented is that it often not only contains overt discrimination against a group (based on a protected class), but also prohibits any criticism of this. When someone is being discriminated against, not subtly or silently but explicitly, intentionally and overtly, and then punished for daring to complain about it, that leads to a lot of resentment (both by the people directly affected and by other members of the same class that observe both the discrimination and the silencing). I'd say that resentment is justified; unfortunately, I suspect the backlash will primarily hit the people that the DEI policies were supposed to help, rather than the perpetrators of the discrimination.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
> that leads to a lot of resentment (both by the people directly affected and by other members of the same class that observe both the discrimination and the silencing). Agreed. This is the fundamental flaw of a lot of social theories borne out of academia when they land in the real world. They thrive in an academic world where hierarchy is bought into by students eagerly and are transplanted into a world where people must accept hierarchy to survive. > I'd say that resentment is justified Resentment never makes anything better, no matter how justified. Unfortunately.
- teitoklien 2y ago
  That resentment drove people to vote for powers that forced FB and other bigtech to reduce the discriminations that were creating those resentments I’d say it did make things better.
  - aprilthird2021 2y ago
    It wasn't the driving force of that at all, but I'll rephrase if you want to be pedantic. Resentment is rarely ever only channeled in good ways
  - llamaimperative 2y ago

Viliam1234 2y ago

> lack of educational resources Could you please explain this part? I am not sure how you meant it. Is the main problem that the resources are not in the language of your tribe? Or is that a lack of educational resources regardless of language (e.g. simply not enough textbooks to give to each child)? What kind of educational resources do you wish you had?

sfifs 2y ago
Interesting comment... I keep getting surprised by implicit first world assumptions on HN. I'm not the OP but you could consider hypothetically as an example, would great teachers largely choose to settle in PNW?
- macrocosmos 2y ago
  Yes they would. It’s a beautiful part of the country. And I know great teachers that live there.
  - antics 2y ago
    Unfortunately, our reservation is in central Oregon, which is less desirable. Even if we were not forced out of the ancestral homeland (what is now called the Columbia River Gorge), I'm not sure that would have been better. Although pretty, it is very out of the way, and people do not know that it is in the same class as the Yangtze (say).
- Viliam1234 2y ago
  Not sure where you see assumptions. There are many possible problems, and I don't know OP's situation, which is why I was asking what is the main problem there. Sometimes it's teachers. Sometimes it's textbooks. Sometimes it's not having a roof above your head. Sometimes the kids are starving and can't focus on the lessons. Sometimes it's different language. > would great teachers largely choose to settle in PNW? One possible reason is that some of them could be born there. Again, this differs between communities. Some of them respect their smartest members. Some kick them out.
2y ago

Avicebron 2y ago

> "The problems that afflict my community are running water, drug addiction, lack of educational resources, and secular trends have have made our traditional industries obsolete" So in my rural, predominantly white "Non DEI target" part of the country, this is the problem too except when these people apply to hundreds of jobs in software engineering they get crickets.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
Well, in the non-DEI world, we'll soon find out if the reason this happens was solely because of policies or if low educational attainment seeps into one's college, ones preparedness for a job, one's ability to get a job, etc.
antics 2y ago
Well, just one data point for you (YMMV), but in "DEI" contexts I've been a part of, class diversity did actually come up somewhat regularly. I would not say corp diversity efforts I saw were all that successful in staffing that demographic—but they also weren't that successful in staffing minorities either. Mostly I think this reflects a consistent disconnect between what people wanted corp diversity efforts to be, and what they really were. With all that said I do have a story of my own like this. In 2013 or so I wrote some stuff about spam detection and a Twitter engineer reached out about a job. I was an outgoing new grad from the University of Utah. When I got through with the loop the recruiter said, "How did you get here, we don't get many candidates from Utah." I still wonder what they wanted me to think when I heard that. What I actually felt was deeply out of place and uncomfortable. And it has affected every hiring process I've been apart of since.
KaiserPro 2y ago
but you do see the problem here. Its not the "DEI targets" that are at fault, its the systematic roll back of any protection for any poor community. The same people that are saying "a new way forward" or "make america great again" failed to put any money to help. Your community doesn't produce anything that those funding congress care about, means that you get nothing.
gunsle 2y ago

bastardoperator 2y ago

I don't have to be invested in a cause to know that diversity in problem solving can be a key component to success hence global technology companies, or that promoting the ideas of equity and inclusion are things most humans can benefit from. DEI is not about change or solving a particular problem, it's about awareness of perspective and seeking to understand others.

antics 2y ago
To be clear I am not arguing for or against working with a bunch of people from totally different backgrounds, demographics, etc. I am arguing that, because we can't do everything we should decide what really matters to us, commit to it in the long term, and invest in it to the exclusion of the many other completely worthy causes. I know it sounds obvious, but at least for the communities I belong to, the industry committed shallowly and as a result accomplished very little.
- bastardoperator 2y ago
  It sounds like you're confusing affirmative action with DEI. A broader perspective benefits everyone. Different lived experiences contribute to a broader perspective. It's not about checking boxes or filling quotas and it's not specific to any particular group.
  - antics 2y ago
    I’m happy to continue this conversation, but I think we’re not on the same page about what I am saying, which makes it hard to say how to proceed. To your specific point here, I’m not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

pepinator 2y ago

[flagged]

antics 2y ago
Oh I think we have very good empirical reasons to believe that’s not true. If this was indeed common knowledge, DEI as a movement would not be mired with the issues it has, specifically relating to performative activism and focus. If that’s not good enough for you, we can evaluate your claim further by surveying people and seeing if this advice is actually well-known. I encourage you to try this yourself, I think what you’ll find is that the vast majority of people who participate in these systems find what I’ve written surprising and unintuitive. And that’s one reason why this comment has 250 upvotes, which is more than almost all HN stories on a given day. YMMV, happy to hear about how this turns out for you.

gunsle 2y ago

lol I have been saying similar things here in Minnesota for years. A lot of extremely liberal, wealthy progressives like to try to change landmarks around here to the native language version. I have no issue with this at face value. What I do have an issue with, is these people acting like this is doing anything to help the local Native American tribes. Why would they care if a lake they probably never visit and a flag they barely look at are changed? Especially when they weren’t even asking for it? What does that do at all to actually help our local Native communities struggling with the things you listed above? Absolutely nothing. It’s all a parade to make these people feel like they’re doing something while having to sacrifice absolutely nothing from their own lives. It’s honestly pathetic.