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You're absolutely correct and I think it's what drives all the resentment about DEI programs. People aren't dumb, when they see some group only makes up 3% of t

You're absolutely correct and I think it's what drives all the resentment about DEI programs. People aren't dumb, when they see some group only makes up 3% of the population of engineers and they see a program trying to balance senior positions, they're going to feel its unfair bs. What's really interesting is that almost every woman I've worked with professionaly isn't from North America, they're all from India, Iran and Eastern Europe (Belarus, Bulgaria etc). There's something deeply wrong with the culture here that's screwing up the top of the funnel.

llamaimperative 2y ago
Hint: None of this is news to people advocating for DEI programs. They believe that part of what screws up the top of the funnel is there being so few examples to follow later on down the funnel. There is no person on the planet who's advocating for DEI at senior level positions in advanced fields and no changes elsewhere in the system... obviously.
blitzar 2y ago
(~2018) In India, women represent 45% of total computer science enrollment in universities, almost three times the rate in the United States, where it is 18%.
- morkalork 2y ago
  And in Iran, it's even higher (1). It is not what you would expect from either country based on the stereotypes people have in their minds. (1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-ta...
  - iforgot22 2y ago
    The stereotype in my mind is that countries in Asia prioritize STEM a lot, so this makes sense to me. And they don't call it STEM, it's just school.
    - blitzar 2y ago
      The stereotype in my mind ... countries in Asia prioritize education a lot, prioritize good jobs and good careers a lot. Children are pushed towards the schooling that offers the best careers and STEM is it at the moment.
      - iforgot22 2y ago
        I did forget about lawyers, the other stereotypical Iranian-American career that isn't STEM. The part of my family from Iran jokes about this a lot, saying even lawyers unofficially go by the title "doctor" because of the status it holds, idk if that's true.
      - umeshunni 2y ago
        And then people wonder why Asians are overrepresented in high-paying careers in the US. Surely, it might be because of lack of DEI programs.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    The 70% statistic is very prominent, but some of my Iranian friends were incredulous of it. Some speculate that men tend to pick up skills during mandatory military service, so women make up a larger proportion of college graduates. Interestingly when you look for statistics on the workforce itself (rather than graduates with STEM degrees), you see familiar ratios of ~20-25%. E.g. https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/425963/23-percent-of-mobile-app-developers-in-Iran-are-women https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/425963/23-percent-of-mobile... "Women make up 48 percent of internet users, 45 percent of cellphone users, and 23 percent of mobile app developers in Iran, Telecommunications Minister Mohammad Javad Azari Jahromi said here on Sunday." I can't seem to find stats on the aggregate gender breakdown of software developers in Iran.
iforgot22 2y ago
This tracks. I got a computer science degree from a large US university. Something like 75-80% of the major was male. The majority of the male CS students were Asian-American*, but not extremely. Way larger share on the female side, like 90%. Several of my friends in CS said their parents wouldn't have supported their college education if they were getting a humanities degree, with the possible exception of law. Even business was unlikely. * counting South and West Asian too
energy123 2y ago
> There's something deeply wrong with the culture Another possibility: Women in poorer countries enrol in CS out of necessity. In wealthy countries, they have more economic freedom and there are more jobs available higher up on Maslow's Hierarchy, so they enrol in what they actually want (which is not CS). On average.
- pxmpxm 2y ago
  Entirely accurate, in ex-communist eastern europe some sort of math/engineering job was about the only way to live somewhat decent, so anyone remotely ambitious would go into that.

llamaimperative 2y ago

Hint: None of this is news to people advocating for DEI programs. They believe that part of what screws up the top of the funnel is there being so few examples to follow later on down the funnel. There is no person on the planet who's advocating for DEI at senior level positions in advanced fields and no changes elsewhere in the system... obviously.

blitzar 2y ago

(~2018) In India, women represent 45% of total computer science enrollment in universities, almost three times the rate in the United States, where it is 18%.

morkalork 2y ago
And in Iran, it's even higher (1). It is not what you would expect from either country based on the stereotypes people have in their minds. (1) https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-ta...
- iforgot22 2y ago
  The stereotype in my mind is that countries in Asia prioritize STEM a lot, so this makes sense to me. And they don't call it STEM, it's just school.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    The stereotype in my mind ... countries in Asia prioritize education a lot, prioritize good jobs and good careers a lot. Children are pushed towards the schooling that offers the best careers and STEM is it at the moment.
    - iforgot22 2y ago
      I did forget about lawyers, the other stereotypical Iranian-American career that isn't STEM. The part of my family from Iran jokes about this a lot, saying even lawyers unofficially go by the title "doctor" because of the status it holds, idk if that's true.
    - umeshunni 2y ago
      And then people wonder why Asians are overrepresented in high-paying careers in the US. Surely, it might be because of lack of DEI programs.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  The 70% statistic is very prominent, but some of my Iranian friends were incredulous of it. Some speculate that men tend to pick up skills during mandatory military service, so women make up a larger proportion of college graduates. Interestingly when you look for statistics on the workforce itself (rather than graduates with STEM degrees), you see familiar ratios of ~20-25%. E.g. https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/425963/23-percent-of-mobile-app-developers-in-Iran-are-women https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/425963/23-percent-of-mobile... "Women make up 48 percent of internet users, 45 percent of cellphone users, and 23 percent of mobile app developers in Iran, Telecommunications Minister Mohammad Javad Azari Jahromi said here on Sunday." I can't seem to find stats on the aggregate gender breakdown of software developers in Iran.

iforgot22 2y ago

This tracks. I got a computer science degree from a large US university. Something like 75-80% of the major was male. The majority of the male CS students were Asian-American*, but not extremely. Way larger share on the female side, like 90%. Several of my friends in CS said their parents wouldn't have supported their college education if they were getting a humanities degree, with the possible exception of law. Even business was unlikely. * counting South and West Asian too

energy123 2y ago

> There's something deeply wrong with the culture Another possibility: Women in poorer countries enrol in CS out of necessity. In wealthy countries, they have more economic freedom and there are more jobs available higher up on Maslow's Hierarchy, so they enrol in what they actually want (which is not CS). On average.

pxmpxm 2y ago
Entirely accurate, in ex-communist eastern europe some sort of math/engineering job was about the only way to live somewhat decent, so anyone remotely ambitious would go into that.