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Every time you try to right a wrong like this (DEI), it just makes things worse for everyone involved. Just find the best person for the job, no matter their sk

Every time you try to right a wrong like this (DEI), it just makes things worse for everyone involved. Just find the best person for the job, no matter their skin color, sex, age, etc.

ceejayoz 2y ago
That’s the goal of DEI; recognizing that scenarios like two hundred years of all male, all white SCOTUS judges and Presidents and all the other top slots was probably not due to them being inherently better than every non-white, non-male otherwise eligible person in the country.
- gr3ml1n 2y ago
  When I hear these sorts of arguments I'm reminded of this XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/808/ https://xkcd.com/808/
- wiseowise 2y ago
  How is that applicable to Europe? Who knows.
  - Johanx64 2y ago
    As somebody who born and spent significant portion of my life in very homogenous country. Reading these threads I always come to the very same conclusion: diversity IS the problem and creates problems instead of providing any tangible benifits. DEI is attempted solution to the "problem" and yet creates even more of a problem where people aren't hired based on merit and being the best candidate for the job. None of those things are a problem in homogenous country. They simply do not exist. Similarly it doesn't make sense that a person with a different skin color could bring anything new to the table, after all skin color does not matter.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      There are no homogenous countries. Skin color is just one of the many ways people get slotted into buckets. Your country has men and women. It has gay and bi people. It has trans people. Young and old. It has blind people. It has amputees. It has atheists and religious people. It has mentally ill and chronically sick and abused kids and all sorts of other diverse conditions that have to be addressed with various accommodations.
      - Johanx64 2y ago
        You live in such a twisted "diverse" world-view that has pitted even men and women, young and old against each other. What a rotten culture. Don't No-True-Scotsman and pontificate me what a homogenous and non-homegenous country is, I very well now what the difference is. I've lived it, I've seen it, I've experienced it. It's a symptom of a sick, atomized diverse society if it can be so easily fractured by using <0.1% fringe cases as tool.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        Why do you believe skin color is the only possible thing “diverse” covers?
        Johanx64 2y ago
        What benefits does your linguistic framework and redefinitions of commonly used terms offer? I'm not seeing it. Looks like you're desperately looking for some seams from which to break fabric of cohesive society appart. Homogenous societies do not need nor should they offer special affordances to either atheists or religious people. Only diverse societies that have imported bunch of incompatible religions that beef with each other and prevailing culture (often violently!) that need "special" accomodations and guard rails to prevent escalations of conflict.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        I’m not the one redefining terms. Diversity covers far more variation than skin color alone. DEI efforts have long included things like “women in tech” or “LGBT friendly”. Your country may be homogenous in color, but in everything? Closest you probably get to that is the Vatican, and even there there’s various kinds of diversity.
- l0t0b0r0s 2y ago
  Do you support this line of thinking for other ethno-homogenous countries? Are China India and Japan not serving their constituents the best they could because their SCOTUS equivalent judges are not diverse? The USA was 90+% white before 1965, so for the majority of its history it had White SCOTUS judges. Do you seriously think that because the SCOTUS was 100% instead of 90% white that a great disservice was done to our country.
qingcharles 2y ago
It's not that simple. Without DEI you end up with products created by white men for white men. DEI means you end up employing some people who potentially aren't as technically qualified, but bring a different viewpoint to the team. Until I spent a long time living with Blacks (as a white) I never knew all the things they go through growing up, I never knew how their communities and families were organized, I never knew what sort of products they needed and what sort of products they bought. I never even watched BET in my life, or read Essence magazine, for instance. My life experience was a bubble that was cut off from a significant portion of the population. Now add in Hispanics, Asians and every other culture and I am missing out on knowing how most of the world lives.
- romanovcode 2y ago
  Why couldn't they build their own products then? Land of opportunity and all...
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    They can, and we can all live in bubbles, but I would hazard a guess that getting that Sand Hill Road VC money is a lot harder for, say, a Black entrepreneur without a degree, versus a Zuck.
- nprateem 2y ago
  Framing hiring as a strategic decision like this makes sense. But that doesn't mean fast tracked C-suite promotions, etc. also do.
- GiorgioG 2y ago
  > employing some people who potentially aren't as technically qualified, but bring a different viewpoint to the team I would be pretty pissed off if I couldn't hire a the best qualified person in favor of someone with a different viewpoint that's not materially relevant to the position. > My life experience was a bubble that was cut off from a significant portion of the population. No offense, but nothing is stopping you from expanding your horizons, in this day and age it doesn't require you to live with other kinds of people. Nor is expanding your horizons particularly beneficial for many/most domains we work in. I can speak 3 languages, have lived in the US/Europe, grew up in a poor US black/hispanic neighborhood, etc. Knowing how other people live has never given me any particular insight that was helpful at my software development job. My highly-skilled coworker (and friend) is black/hispanic, he hates this DEI stuff. He didn't get his job from any DEI initiatives (we've worked together at previous employers, his connections/reputation got him here), but that won't stop people who don't know him from wondering if he's actually competent, or is just here because of some DEI quota.

Every time you try to right a wrong like this (DEI), it just makes things worse for everyone involved. Just find the best person for the job, no matter their skin color, sex, age, etc.

ceejayoz 2y ago

That’s the goal of DEI; recognizing that scenarios like two hundred years of all male, all white SCOTUS judges and Presidents and all the other top slots was probably not due to them being inherently better than every non-white, non-male otherwise eligible person in the country.

gr3ml1n 2y ago
When I hear these sorts of arguments I'm reminded of this XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/808/ https://xkcd.com/808/
wiseowise 2y ago
How is that applicable to Europe? Who knows.
- Johanx64 2y ago
  As somebody who born and spent significant portion of my life in very homogenous country. Reading these threads I always come to the very same conclusion: diversity IS the problem and creates problems instead of providing any tangible benifits. DEI is attempted solution to the "problem" and yet creates even more of a problem where people aren't hired based on merit and being the best candidate for the job. None of those things are a problem in homogenous country. They simply do not exist. Similarly it doesn't make sense that a person with a different skin color could bring anything new to the table, after all skin color does not matter.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    There are no homogenous countries. Skin color is just one of the many ways people get slotted into buckets. Your country has men and women. It has gay and bi people. It has trans people. Young and old. It has blind people. It has amputees. It has atheists and religious people. It has mentally ill and chronically sick and abused kids and all sorts of other diverse conditions that have to be addressed with various accommodations.
    - Johanx64 2y ago
      You live in such a twisted "diverse" world-view that has pitted even men and women, young and old against each other. What a rotten culture. Don't No-True-Scotsman and pontificate me what a homogenous and non-homegenous country is, I very well now what the difference is. I've lived it, I've seen it, I've experienced it. It's a symptom of a sick, atomized diverse society if it can be so easily fractured by using <0.1% fringe cases as tool.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        Why do you believe skin color is the only possible thing “diverse” covers?
        Johanx64 2y ago
        What benefits does your linguistic framework and redefinitions of commonly used terms offer? I'm not seeing it. Looks like you're desperately looking for some seams from which to break fabric of cohesive society appart. Homogenous societies do not need nor should they offer special affordances to either atheists or religious people. Only diverse societies that have imported bunch of incompatible religions that beef with each other and prevailing culture (often violently!) that need "special" accomodations and guard rails to prevent escalations of conflict.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        I’m not the one redefining terms. Diversity covers far more variation than skin color alone. DEI efforts have long included things like “women in tech” or “LGBT friendly”. Your country may be homogenous in color, but in everything? Closest you probably get to that is the Vatican, and even there there’s various kinds of diversity.
l0t0b0r0s 2y ago
Do you support this line of thinking for other ethno-homogenous countries? Are China India and Japan not serving their constituents the best they could because their SCOTUS equivalent judges are not diverse? The USA was 90+% white before 1965, so for the majority of its history it had White SCOTUS judges. Do you seriously think that because the SCOTUS was 100% instead of 90% white that a great disservice was done to our country.

qingcharles 2y ago

It's not that simple. Without DEI you end up with products created by white men for white men. DEI means you end up employing some people who potentially aren't as technically qualified, but bring a different viewpoint to the team. Until I spent a long time living with Blacks (as a white) I never knew all the things they go through growing up, I never knew how their communities and families were organized, I never knew what sort of products they needed and what sort of products they bought. I never even watched BET in my life, or read Essence magazine, for instance. My life experience was a bubble that was cut off from a significant portion of the population. Now add in Hispanics, Asians and every other culture and I am missing out on knowing how most of the world lives.

romanovcode 2y ago
Why couldn't they build their own products then? Land of opportunity and all...
- qingcharles 2y ago
  They can, and we can all live in bubbles, but I would hazard a guess that getting that Sand Hill Road VC money is a lot harder for, say, a Black entrepreneur without a degree, versus a Zuck.
nprateem 2y ago
Framing hiring as a strategic decision like this makes sense. But that doesn't mean fast tracked C-suite promotions, etc. also do.
GiorgioG 2y ago
> employing some people who potentially aren't as technically qualified, but bring a different viewpoint to the team I would be pretty pissed off if I couldn't hire a the best qualified person in favor of someone with a different viewpoint that's not materially relevant to the position. > My life experience was a bubble that was cut off from a significant portion of the population. No offense, but nothing is stopping you from expanding your horizons, in this day and age it doesn't require you to live with other kinds of people. Nor is expanding your horizons particularly beneficial for many/most domains we work in. I can speak 3 languages, have lived in the US/Europe, grew up in a poor US black/hispanic neighborhood, etc. Knowing how other people live has never given me any particular insight that was helpful at my software development job. My highly-skilled coworker (and friend) is black/hispanic, he hates this DEI stuff. He didn't get his job from any DEI initiatives (we've worked together at previous employers, his connections/reputation got him here), but that won't stop people who don't know him from wondering if he's actually competent, or is just here because of some DEI quota.