4 ms·

The “E” doesn’t mean “equal”…

by throwpoaster 2y ago

ceejayoz 2y ago
Change it to "equitably" if you prefer. The point remains the same.
- throwpoaster 2y ago
  Do you think there is a functional difference between those words?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    I think you could easily describe accessibility efforts to be an attempt to provide both equal and equitable access to content.
    - throwpoaster 2y ago
      Equity requires unequal treatment so do you have an example?
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        Sure. Equal is giving everyone a printout. Equity is giving the blind student a Braille version. The latter is an attempt at providing equal access to the contents to those with different needs, so that they may learn equitably. (The alternative term JEDI might argue that this is the just result.)
        throwpoaster 2y ago
        Thank you, that seems a pretty good example.
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        You're not describing equity. You're describing accessibility. Equity would be mandating that blind students pass at the same rate as sighted students regardless of their scores.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        No, I’m describing equity in opportunity to learn. Equal outcomes for all is not equity - it is inequitable for a deliberately lazy person to succeed when a hard working person does not, just because of something they were born with. Giving every student the same printed packet is equal treatment, but unjust and inequitable to the blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equity?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equity?wprov=sfti1 > Social equity within a society is different from social equality based on formal equality of opportunity. For example, person A may have no difficulty walking, person B may be able to walk but have difficulties with stairs, while person C may be unable to walk at all. Social equality would be treating each of those three people in the same way (by providing each with the same aids, or none), whereas social equity pursues the aim of making them equally capable of traversing public spaces by themselves (e.g. by installing lifts next to staircases and providing person C with a wheelchair).
- flatpepsi17 2y ago
  Equality and Equity are vastly different things. If a program treats people equally, that's a good thing. If you want equal outcomes (regardless of many very real factors), that by definition will require unequal treatment.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > Equality and Equity are vastly different things. But related. I was at a museum that had a full-sized submarine on display. There was a touchable model and audio description for blind people. Equal, as much as possible - a Braille variant of a novel, for example, provides a fairly equal experience. Equitable, when perfect equal results are not possible. You can't fix a person's severed optic nerve, but you can certainly attempt to give them fair access to things.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      This is a semantic argument. Accessibility wasn't under DEI in the org chart, and preexisted DEI. That's all that matters.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        DEI is a new name for and/or refinement of a long existing concept that gave us things like the abolitionists, suffragists, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans With Disabilities Act. As with "negro" and "colored", the new positive term eventually became a slur via concerted efforts from its opponents. ("DEI mayor": https://www.npr.org/2024/04/04/1242294070/baltimore-key-bridge-mayor-brandon-scott-racist-attacks https://www.npr.org/2024/04/04/1242294070/baltimore-key-brid...)
        AlexandrB 2y ago
        I disagree with this telling of history. DEI has much more in common with various affirmative action efforts in the 80s and 90s than it does with something like the Civil Rights Act and as such is a lot more controversial even among the groups it's meant to help.

The “E” doesn’t mean “equal”…

ceejayoz 2y ago

Change it to "equitably" if you prefer. The point remains the same.

throwpoaster 2y ago
Do you think there is a functional difference between those words?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  I think you could easily describe accessibility efforts to be an attempt to provide both equal and equitable access to content.
  - throwpoaster 2y ago
    Equity requires unequal treatment so do you have an example?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      Sure. Equal is giving everyone a printout. Equity is giving the blind student a Braille version. The latter is an attempt at providing equal access to the contents to those with different needs, so that they may learn equitably. (The alternative term JEDI might argue that this is the just result.)
      - throwpoaster 2y ago
        Thank you, that seems a pretty good example.
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        You're not describing equity. You're describing accessibility. Equity would be mandating that blind students pass at the same rate as sighted students regardless of their scores.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        No, I’m describing equity in opportunity to learn. Equal outcomes for all is not equity - it is inequitable for a deliberately lazy person to succeed when a hard working person does not, just because of something they were born with. Giving every student the same printed packet is equal treatment, but unjust and inequitable to the blind student. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equity?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_equity?wprov=sfti1 > Social equity within a society is different from social equality based on formal equality of opportunity. For example, person A may have no difficulty walking, person B may be able to walk but have difficulties with stairs, while person C may be unable to walk at all. Social equality would be treating each of those three people in the same way (by providing each with the same aids, or none), whereas social equity pursues the aim of making them equally capable of traversing public spaces by themselves (e.g. by installing lifts next to staircases and providing person C with a wheelchair).
flatpepsi17 2y ago
Equality and Equity are vastly different things. If a program treats people equally, that's a good thing. If you want equal outcomes (regardless of many very real factors), that by definition will require unequal treatment.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > Equality and Equity are vastly different things. But related. I was at a museum that had a full-sized submarine on display. There was a touchable model and audio description for blind people. Equal, as much as possible - a Braille variant of a novel, for example, provides a fairly equal experience. Equitable, when perfect equal results are not possible. You can't fix a person's severed optic nerve, but you can certainly attempt to give them fair access to things.
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    This is a semantic argument. Accessibility wasn't under DEI in the org chart, and preexisted DEI. That's all that matters.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      DEI is a new name for and/or refinement of a long existing concept that gave us things like the abolitionists, suffragists, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans With Disabilities Act. As with "negro" and "colored", the new positive term eventually became a slur via concerted efforts from its opponents. ("DEI mayor": https://www.npr.org/2024/04/04/1242294070/baltimore-key-bridge-mayor-brandon-scott-racist-attacks https://www.npr.org/2024/04/04/1242294070/baltimore-key-brid...)
      - AlexandrB 2y ago
        I disagree with this telling of history. DEI has much more in common with various affirmative action efforts in the 80s and 90s than it does with something like the Civil Rights Act and as such is a lot more controversial even among the groups it's meant to help.