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The problem with such judgment is that they are subjective and subject to biases that change over time. Almost every scrap of information from ancient civilizat

The problem with such judgment is that they are subjective and subject to biases that change over time. Almost every scrap of information from ancient civilizations is considered priceless at this point because so few is left of it. Anything from obscene graffiti, shopping lists, personal messages, etc. All of it. Many autocratic regimes editorialize and censure all forms of publications. But even in the US, which is nominally still a democracy you now have states like Florida forcing changes to literature works and banning books entirely for religious and ideological reasons. And this is not just a right wing thing. There have been a few publishers that took it upon themselves to editorialize literature from the 19th and 20th century to get rid of some things that are now considered sexist, racist or otherwise offensive. The whole cancel culture is not just about canceling people, but about limiting access to their work as well. I was at a Christmas market in Berlin a few weeks ago near the Opera. There's a nice little monument there for the book burning that happened in the 1930s. Anything that was vaguely intellectual or Jewish in origin was burned right there during the Kristallnacht. Nice place for a Christmas market and a grim reminder that those calling for things to be deleted/cancelled aren't necessarily very nice people. And of course Hitler himself got cancelled. Possession or distribution of his books is still not allowed in Germany. Anyway, imagine somebody in 5000 years finding their way to some archive of hacker news or some reddit thread might look differently at the value of some of the comments than the average moderator.

Over2Chars 2y ago
All action is "subjective and subject to biases that change over time". This would then imply I could never take any action, because it's just subjective and biased. Maybe that's an exaggeration of your position, but you do seem to be suggesting inaction or the impossibility of judgement. I reject this position 100%. I would suggest that judgement is a critical part of our civilization, and it's judgement that says those bits of obscene graffiti in Pompeii that makes it so. Or else they could say "well, we can't claim ancient cave art is priceless, because we're biased and our biases will change over time. Maybe in a thousand years we'll discover that ancient cave art is worthless, so we'll do nothing". In fact you have judged my opinions and shared your judgement with me. Good job! Your characterization of regimes as autocratic is judgmental, biased and will change over time. But right now that's your judgement and I applaud it, even if I disagree. Gosh, book burning. Not backing up a romance novel or cookbook is definitely analogous to book burning, but I'll play along. It was a symbolic act to show a rejection of ideas, not an attempt to eradicate the books, much in the same way Gandhi encouraged the burning of foreign made clothing and products. He wasn't going to rid the world of British cloth nor were the Germans going to rid the world of non-German ideas. So yeah, when all the badly written cook books, romance novels, and children's books are in a huge bonfire, you can blame me, personally.
- globnomulous 2y ago
  > All action is "subjective and subject to biases that change over time". This is poppycock. Backing up all books -- the very action discussed by the person you're answering -- is by definition neither subjective nor subject to biases. > This would then imply I could never take any action, because it's just subjective and biased. And even if the first quoted claim were true, this, too, clearly isn't. Nowhere does the comment you're answering imply that the bias or subjective rationale of an action should, ipso facto, discourage a person from taking it. Your comment is replete with similar reasoning, so warped that it's difficult to characterize as anything other than in bad faith. Indeed, this is the snottiest, rudest, least constructive comment I've seen on HN in quite some time -- excepting a couple of my snotty remarks on language or the quality of someone's writing. I have no idea what response you expect, but the only one you deserve, I think, is one that just points out your dismissiveness, sarcasm, and breathtaking contempt. What an awful way to move through the world, let alone through HN.
  - bqmjjx0kac 2y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if they're an LLM-powered bot.
    - Over2Chars 2y ago
      This seems to be the new hotness is generic replies. "No, I think you're an LLM-powered bot! So there!"
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Thanks for this. I wasn't going to feed the trolls; but you are not wrong > this is the snottiest, rudest, least constructive comment I've seen on HN in quite some time I wish ;-). I see a lot worse here regularly. But it's certainly not nice behavior. Luckily, I have a thick skin.
    - Over2Chars 2y ago
      Anyone who takes a position you don't like is, presumably, a troll. Well, it takes one to know one. So there.
heinrich5991 2y ago
> Possession or distribution of his books is still not allowed in Germany. AFAIK this has never been true in Germany (for the book Mein Kampf at least). AFAIK the German state of Bavaria inherited Hitler's copyright on the book, and did not republish it. This means that no one was allowed to print it for copyright reasons, but you could still own or trade existing copies of the book. After 2015, 70 years after Hitler's death, the book entered the public domain. Looking into Wikipedia, uncommented reprints have been forbidden: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mein_Kampf&oldid=1260329095#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mein_Kampf&oldid=..., which I didn't know before.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  It seems you are correct and I was only half right. Lets just say that quoting the man in public is still likely to get you in trouble. More than a few AFD politicians are finding that out the hard way.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    And rightfully so. Germany has a peculiar history in this regard, and that implies a federal obligation to account for it.
carlosjobim 2y ago
> you now have states like Florida forcing changes to literature works and banning books entirely for religious and ideological reasons. This is not honest. They're not banning any books, they are stopping school teachers from forcing certain books on children. The difference is immense.
- Over2Chars 2y ago
  An excellent point. Though, I am not against highly directive schools (I think we need them), I am against mis-characterization.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  I think that's a pretty biased misrepresentation of the facts. Florida is denying children access to those books by actively forcing teachers to not talk about them (or educate kids about their content). Teachers in violation are at risk of being fired (several have been fired). Schools are being threatened with getting their funding cut. They are also forbidding libraries from having those books. And of course, the list of books is getting pretty long and what's on that list is basically determined by a very small but vocal group of christian conservatives with uptight opinions on things like science, evolution, sexuality, and other things they insist are wrong/evil/dangerous. So they are not technically banning anything. But they are punishing people that go against this nonetheless. Which makes it kind of a ban. It doesn't go as far as Nazi book burnings. But I have just about as much sympathy for the people that did as I have for those insisting e.g. Harry Potter must not be in a school library succeeding with that because the threats against teachers and schools are very real and these people wield a lot of power, apparently. Bullying teachers and librarians into complying with this seems to happen a lot in Florida. That's not banned at all and actively encouraged. What's next Uncle Tom's Cabin? Oh wait that actually happened as well in some schools. Because these people also include some racists and xenophobes. You might call some of these people fascists even. And they just don't like being reminded of things like slavery.

Over2Chars 2y ago

All action is "subjective and subject to biases that change over time". This would then imply I could never take any action, because it's just subjective and biased. Maybe that's an exaggeration of your position, but you do seem to be suggesting inaction or the impossibility of judgement. I reject this position 100%. I would suggest that judgement is a critical part of our civilization, and it's judgement that says those bits of obscene graffiti in Pompeii that makes it so. Or else they could say "well, we can't claim ancient cave art is priceless, because we're biased and our biases will change over time. Maybe in a thousand years we'll discover that ancient cave art is worthless, so we'll do nothing". In fact you have judged my opinions and shared your judgement with me. Good job! Your characterization of regimes as autocratic is judgmental, biased and will change over time. But right now that's your judgement and I applaud it, even if I disagree. Gosh, book burning. Not backing up a romance novel or cookbook is definitely analogous to book burning, but I'll play along. It was a symbolic act to show a rejection of ideas, not an attempt to eradicate the books, much in the same way Gandhi encouraged the burning of foreign made clothing and products. He wasn't going to rid the world of British cloth nor were the Germans going to rid the world of non-German ideas. So yeah, when all the badly written cook books, romance novels, and children's books are in a huge bonfire, you can blame me, personally.

globnomulous 2y ago
> All action is "subjective and subject to biases that change over time". This is poppycock. Backing up all books -- the very action discussed by the person you're answering -- is by definition neither subjective nor subject to biases. > This would then imply I could never take any action, because it's just subjective and biased. And even if the first quoted claim were true, this, too, clearly isn't. Nowhere does the comment you're answering imply that the bias or subjective rationale of an action should, ipso facto, discourage a person from taking it. Your comment is replete with similar reasoning, so warped that it's difficult to characterize as anything other than in bad faith. Indeed, this is the snottiest, rudest, least constructive comment I've seen on HN in quite some time -- excepting a couple of my snotty remarks on language or the quality of someone's writing. I have no idea what response you expect, but the only one you deserve, I think, is one that just points out your dismissiveness, sarcasm, and breathtaking contempt. What an awful way to move through the world, let alone through HN.
- bqmjjx0kac 2y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if they're an LLM-powered bot.
  - Over2Chars 2y ago
    This seems to be the new hotness is generic replies. "No, I think you're an LLM-powered bot! So there!"
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Thanks for this. I wasn't going to feed the trolls; but you are not wrong > this is the snottiest, rudest, least constructive comment I've seen on HN in quite some time I wish ;-). I see a lot worse here regularly. But it's certainly not nice behavior. Luckily, I have a thick skin.
  - Over2Chars 2y ago
    Anyone who takes a position you don't like is, presumably, a troll. Well, it takes one to know one. So there.

heinrich5991 2y ago

> Possession or distribution of his books is still not allowed in Germany. AFAIK this has never been true in Germany (for the book Mein Kampf at least). AFAIK the German state of Bavaria inherited Hitler's copyright on the book, and did not republish it. This means that no one was allowed to print it for copyright reasons, but you could still own or trade existing copies of the book. After 2015, 70 years after Hitler's death, the book entered the public domain. Looking into Wikipedia, uncommented reprints have been forbidden: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mein_Kampf&oldid=1260329095#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mein_Kampf&oldid=..., which I didn't know before.

jillesvangurp 2y ago
It seems you are correct and I was only half right. Lets just say that quoting the man in public is still likely to get you in trouble. More than a few AFD politicians are finding that out the hard way.
- 9dev 2y ago
  And rightfully so. Germany has a peculiar history in this regard, and that implies a federal obligation to account for it.

carlosjobim 2y ago

> you now have states like Florida forcing changes to literature works and banning books entirely for religious and ideological reasons. This is not honest. They're not banning any books, they are stopping school teachers from forcing certain books on children. The difference is immense.

Over2Chars 2y ago
An excellent point. Though, I am not against highly directive schools (I think we need them), I am against mis-characterization.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
I think that's a pretty biased misrepresentation of the facts. Florida is denying children access to those books by actively forcing teachers to not talk about them (or educate kids about their content). Teachers in violation are at risk of being fired (several have been fired). Schools are being threatened with getting their funding cut. They are also forbidding libraries from having those books. And of course, the list of books is getting pretty long and what's on that list is basically determined by a very small but vocal group of christian conservatives with uptight opinions on things like science, evolution, sexuality, and other things they insist are wrong/evil/dangerous. So they are not technically banning anything. But they are punishing people that go against this nonetheless. Which makes it kind of a ban. It doesn't go as far as Nazi book burnings. But I have just about as much sympathy for the people that did as I have for those insisting e.g. Harry Potter must not be in a school library succeeding with that because the threats against teachers and schools are very real and these people wield a lot of power, apparently. Bullying teachers and librarians into complying with this seems to happen a lot in Florida. That's not banned at all and actively encouraged. What's next Uncle Tom's Cabin? Oh wait that actually happened as well in some schools. Because these people also include some racists and xenophobes. You might call some of these people fascists even. And they just don't like being reminded of things like slavery.