11 ms·

Soldering the Tek way

204 points by zdw 2y ago

XorNot 2y ago
Just yesterday I bought myself a set of pure copper tips off Amazon. People say they don't last, but I have had an incredible amount of difficulty getting regular tips tinned and conducting heat efficiently. No combination of tip tinner, flux or cleaner has ever fully resolved it for me.
- serviceberry 2y ago
  My best guess is that your soldering iron is running too hot, or that you're using the wrong kind of solder. It's generally not an issue.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  It's more likely that your iron is under powered for your application, and frankly a copper tip will likely make the problem even worse. There are three dimensions that impact heat transfer (temperature being equal): Thermal mass of the tip, thermal conductivity of the tip, and power transfer to the tip. If your iron cannot support a regular tip, it's likely that it cannot get enough power to the tip to sustain the heat being pulled from it (copper will just expedite this). You can try a beefier tip (or load up a tip with wet solder which can kinda give the same effect) or you can get a higher power iron. I've been soldering for 15 years with all manner of irons, I've never needed a copper tip, but I often need more than your standard hakko or weller. 400C on a the hakko is not at all close to being equal to 400C on a Metcal for instance.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    When the tip is tinned effectively though, my Hakko works fine. The problem is keeping it properly tinned is a damn challenge: i.e. I think I wiped the whole thing on a sal ammoniac block, then rosin flux, then put the whole tip into a solder bath and got...a tiny spot on the tip which has remained reliably tinned and is the one spot which works well. The symptoms are pretty obvious: even if the iron was underpowered, melting a thin piece of solder wire should be pretty much instant. My issue has just always been getting the tip to a shiny solder finish with all the recommended tools...just doesn't work once that iron layer oxidizes initially. EDIT: Although thinking about this now, actually the way you get rid of mill-scale is with white vinegar so maybe that's my actual answer: white vinegar for a couple hours, then rosin flux and then into the solder bath. Hopefully won't remove the entire iron coating on the tip since otherwise...copper tips again.
    - joemi 2y ago
      It sounds like maybe either you're doing something wrong or there's something wrong with your iron. I have a Hakko and it works great, I have no issues with tinning the tip at all, never had to do a vinegar soak or anything like that.
    - femto 2y ago
      I had a tip like this once. I ended up getting an old flat blade screwdriver and running the sharpish edge of it up and down the tip to remove the baked on crud, until I could see the dull shine of the plating all around. I then tinned the tip using flux bearing (electronics) solder and repeated until all the dry bits on the tip had gone and the tip was fully tinned. It seems to have been okay since then (quite a number of years). I wouldn't want to do the above too often and it's probably not the recommended way, but I seem to have gotten away with it by not being too rough with the screwdriver. Potentially worth a try if the tip is a write off otherwise. Once it is tinned, clean and tin the tip before turning off after every use (but you probably already know that).
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      What temperature do you have it set to?
    - lrasinen 2y ago
      I once forgot to turn off the iron after soldering, and didn't have auto power-off. Ended up reviving the tip with very careful application of 600 grit sandpaper. Not as good as new, but got at least a few years of use on it.
- relwin 2y ago
  Keeping a thin layer of solder on the tip when shutting down helps keep the tip from oxidizing, especially if you solder infrequently.
- gazchop 2y ago
  You probably have a shitty soldering iron which can’t deliver heat consistently. Try grabbing a used Metcal PS900 or MX500 on eBay. I have done zero maintenance or tinning on either of mine. They just work. I do SMD and TH stuff and rework no problems at all. Literally everyone who gets one goes “oh so that’s what soldering is supposed to be like” Also might be crap solder. Get some decent Felder or Multicore stuff. Leaded is easier to work with and harmless if you wash your hands and don’t lick your PCBs. Silver bearing leaded from Felder is what I tend to use. But it’s about $70 a roll Edit: I see that you have a Hakko. Buy genuine tips. Or replace it with a different iron. The cheaper Hakkos are terrible.
  - Gracana 2y ago
    Replacing the entire soldering station would be quite an overreaction to an issue with the tip.
    - gazchop 2y ago
      It really isn’t. It’s probably not just the tip.
ghayes 2y ago
Curious if anyone has tips on lead-free soldering. I basically always see in online forums "just use lead," but never any tips on how to actually become capable on using lead-free solder. Esp. as my son is around a lot, it seems prudent to stay lead-free, even if you can generally handle lead safely. Thanks.
- ryandamm 2y ago
  I'm hardly an expert, but when I switched to lead-free solder (for the same reason, had a young kid around), the only change that helped me was soldering at a significantly higher temperature. The lead free stuff still doesn't behave quite as well as the leaded stuff -- hey, lead is useful! -- but I do feel a lot better about my garage. Though I did backslide when I had a project that required about 500 manual solder connections; after a few days of frustration I guiltily went back to lead, briefly.
  - breckenedge 2y ago
    Ditto. I switched to lead-free for custom keyboards and it didn’t seem too terrible, just had to dial in the temperature more closely to avoid damaging components.
- IgorPartola 2y ago
  I use lead free solder and haven’t had issues though admittedly I have been soldering as an amateur for decades. You want flux and higher temperature. That’s about the only adjustments. It goes without saying that you should use clean tips and a quality iron.
- sitharus 2y ago
  Leaded solder is not a big health risk for hobbyists as long as you have proper fume extraction. Metallic lead is poorly absorbed through the skin (it _is_ absorbed from what I can find, but very very slowly), the major risk is from lead vapour and at normal soldering temperatures that’s very minimal. However, lead free tin-silver-copper (SAC) solder is fairly easy to work with. You need a hotter soldering iron at around 300°C, and if soldering PCBs preheating the board to 80-100°C may be needed for good results. It may also take a bit longer for the solder to propagate flow and wet, since the surface needs to be hotter. If you’re using additional flux or non-fluxed solder you’ll need to check it for compatibility, that should be on the data sheet. Most fluxes are fine, but I’ve seen a couple that say not to use with some lead free solder formulations. The main downside to SAC lead free solder is the higher temperature required which can overheat some components, particularly capacitors and ICs in my experience. It’s a case of being careful to keep the heat duration as short as possible. Personally I went back to lead solder and manage my exposure with ventilation and HEPA filters.
theogravity 2y ago
That was extremely informative for such an old set of videos.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  The first time I've heard of vacuum desoldering, so simple and yet looks like magic compared to struggling with wicks. I have gotta get myself one of those spring loaded plunger things.
jakedata 2y ago
I learned to solder electronics using my father's giant Weller soldering gun. 40 years later I was visiting and had to repair a tiny connection on an electronic candle. I felt like Captain Caveman wielding that giant humming pistol with the lightbulb illuminating the work but by cracky I could still do fine work with that monster tool. This was the longest video I have watched on Youtube in ages. The lack of intrusive ads was refreshing.
brcmthrowaway 2y ago
I would love to play around with electronics but I hate soldering. I hate the toxic smell and fumes, I hate the small bit of metal shards that seem to go everywhere. It's been 100 years since electronics, why no soldering alternative to make connections?!
- giantg2 2y ago
  Technically I think there are conductive glues, but they aren't right for everything.
  - brcmthrowaway 2y ago
    Gamechanger!
- sitharus 2y ago
  Soldering makes a metal-metal connection, with the flux ensuring oxides are removed. This makes a very low resistance connection, mechanically it’s very strong, and it’s easy to automate. As a bonus it’s also very easy to undo. Other technologies like glues and crimping have their uses but are less reliable, higher resistance, or difficult to automate. This may change but there’s little demand. Glues have lower conductivity and are harder to remove, mechanical connectors are bulky and not as strong.
  - brcmthrowaway 2y ago
    What about solder that has flux inside m?
    - sitharus 2y ago
      It’s the same as applying flux separately, the flux is displaced by the metal. If you’re applying fluxed solder directly there’s not much point applying separate flux to clean metal. Of course the flux will boil off pretty quickly so you need to use extra if you’re doing something where the solder wire doesn’t directly touch the components, or if the metal is old or previously soldered. The only advantage to non-fluxed solder for most hobbyists is being able to choose your flux, but for most of us rosin is fine and fairly non-toxic.
752963e64 2y ago
[dead]
flyingzucchini 2y ago
“Sodder” - I never pronounced it like that. It was always “Sold-er”
- sitharus 2y ago
  Sodder is the common American pronunciation, most of the rest of the world says solder.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    Nah some of the rest of us say sodder too, solder sounds too close to soldier when you've got an accent haha.
    - sitharus 2y ago
      I did say _most_ for a reason :) Neither pronunciation is universal, but Commonwealth English speakers (except Canada which uses both) normally pronounce the l, American English speakers don’t. Other English varieties vary.
- geor9e 2y ago
  Interesting. My experience is the opposite. Sodder, soddering is the norm. Every lab, every tech at every company has said it that way. I'm from the west coast USA if thats relevant. If I ever heard someone say "sold-er" I probably dismissed it as someone who only ever read the word, and was sounding it out phonetically.
  - ziml77 2y ago
    NJ here. Also say it without the "L".
cwalv 2y ago
When I was in college I worked as an "electronics technician" intern for a few months. We would work through 3-10 page mods to update PCBs from one version to the next. We worked under a scope, and sometimes routed magnet wire all the way across the board, or even thru vias from one side to the other. It was painstaking work; I had a coworker friend who was a true artist. I never got that good at it, but I sometimes miss that kind of work.
plasticbugs 2y ago
This comprehensive film series from PACE is how I learned (and lots of practice) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIT4ra6Mo0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIT4ra6Mo0s
Animats 2y ago
Here's real soldering the Tektronix way.[1] This is the soldering technique for Tektronix ceramic terminal strips, which had silver fired into the surface of the ceramic. The solder used was 3% silver. The innards of Tektronix scopes of that era are just beautiful. Tektronix was the first to make oscilloscopes where the screen was calibrated, and you could measure voltage reasonably accurately. Earlier scopes just let you see the general shape of a waveform. So Tektronix had to develop components and techniques to make electronics behave consistently, over a wide range of temperature and humidity, in portable instruments. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpB5JqGo1co https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpB5JqGo1co
chiph 2y ago
I attended a high-reliability soldering class while in the USAF. The attention to detail needed for a perfect solder joint is phenomenal. I had lots of good-looking joints get rejected for reasons such as exposed copper and a joint that had a convex surface. There is a USAF Technical Order for this, issued by the Navy and shared with the Marine Corps: https://www.robins.af.mil/Portals/59/documents/technicalorders/00-25-259.pdf https://www.robins.af.mil/Portals/59/documents/technicalorde... Cleaning the joint before and after was key. We used isopropyl alcohol in a push-down dispenser bottle, and acid brushes where we cut the bristles down to about 1/4" inch. Another poster asked about lead-free solder, and the military is using it now but has concerns over tin whiskers.

204 points by zdw 2y ago

Just yesterday I bought myself a set of pure copper tips off Amazon. People say they don't last, but I have had an incredible amount of difficulty getting regular tips tinned and conducting heat efficiently. No combination of tip tinner, flux or cleaner has ever fully resolved it for me.

serviceberry 2y ago
My best guess is that your soldering iron is running too hot, or that you're using the wrong kind of solder. It's generally not an issue.
Workaccount2 2y ago
It's more likely that your iron is under powered for your application, and frankly a copper tip will likely make the problem even worse. There are three dimensions that impact heat transfer (temperature being equal): Thermal mass of the tip, thermal conductivity of the tip, and power transfer to the tip. If your iron cannot support a regular tip, it's likely that it cannot get enough power to the tip to sustain the heat being pulled from it (copper will just expedite this). You can try a beefier tip (or load up a tip with wet solder which can kinda give the same effect) or you can get a higher power iron. I've been soldering for 15 years with all manner of irons, I've never needed a copper tip, but I often need more than your standard hakko or weller. 400C on a the hakko is not at all close to being equal to 400C on a Metcal for instance.
- XorNot 2y ago
  When the tip is tinned effectively though, my Hakko works fine. The problem is keeping it properly tinned is a damn challenge: i.e. I think I wiped the whole thing on a sal ammoniac block, then rosin flux, then put the whole tip into a solder bath and got...a tiny spot on the tip which has remained reliably tinned and is the one spot which works well. The symptoms are pretty obvious: even if the iron was underpowered, melting a thin piece of solder wire should be pretty much instant. My issue has just always been getting the tip to a shiny solder finish with all the recommended tools...just doesn't work once that iron layer oxidizes initially. EDIT: Although thinking about this now, actually the way you get rid of mill-scale is with white vinegar so maybe that's my actual answer: white vinegar for a couple hours, then rosin flux and then into the solder bath. Hopefully won't remove the entire iron coating on the tip since otherwise...copper tips again.
  - joemi 2y ago
    It sounds like maybe either you're doing something wrong or there's something wrong with your iron. I have a Hakko and it works great, I have no issues with tinning the tip at all, never had to do a vinegar soak or anything like that.
  - femto 2y ago
    I had a tip like this once. I ended up getting an old flat blade screwdriver and running the sharpish edge of it up and down the tip to remove the baked on crud, until I could see the dull shine of the plating all around. I then tinned the tip using flux bearing (electronics) solder and repeated until all the dry bits on the tip had gone and the tip was fully tinned. It seems to have been okay since then (quite a number of years). I wouldn't want to do the above too often and it's probably not the recommended way, but I seem to have gotten away with it by not being too rough with the screwdriver. Potentially worth a try if the tip is a write off otherwise. Once it is tinned, clean and tin the tip before turning off after every use (but you probably already know that).
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    What temperature do you have it set to?
  - lrasinen 2y ago
    I once forgot to turn off the iron after soldering, and didn't have auto power-off. Ended up reviving the tip with very careful application of 600 grit sandpaper. Not as good as new, but got at least a few years of use on it.
relwin 2y ago
Keeping a thin layer of solder on the tip when shutting down helps keep the tip from oxidizing, especially if you solder infrequently.
gazchop 2y ago
You probably have a shitty soldering iron which can’t deliver heat consistently. Try grabbing a used Metcal PS900 or MX500 on eBay. I have done zero maintenance or tinning on either of mine. They just work. I do SMD and TH stuff and rework no problems at all. Literally everyone who gets one goes “oh so that’s what soldering is supposed to be like” Also might be crap solder. Get some decent Felder or Multicore stuff. Leaded is easier to work with and harmless if you wash your hands and don’t lick your PCBs. Silver bearing leaded from Felder is what I tend to use. But it’s about $70 a roll Edit: I see that you have a Hakko. Buy genuine tips. Or replace it with a different iron. The cheaper Hakkos are terrible.
- Gracana 2y ago
  Replacing the entire soldering station would be quite an overreaction to an issue with the tip.
  - gazchop 2y ago
    It really isn’t. It’s probably not just the tip.

ghayes 2y ago

Curious if anyone has tips on lead-free soldering. I basically always see in online forums "just use lead," but never any tips on how to actually become capable on using lead-free solder. Esp. as my son is around a lot, it seems prudent to stay lead-free, even if you can generally handle lead safely. Thanks.

ryandamm 2y ago
I'm hardly an expert, but when I switched to lead-free solder (for the same reason, had a young kid around), the only change that helped me was soldering at a significantly higher temperature. The lead free stuff still doesn't behave quite as well as the leaded stuff -- hey, lead is useful! -- but I do feel a lot better about my garage. Though I did backslide when I had a project that required about 500 manual solder connections; after a few days of frustration I guiltily went back to lead, briefly.
- breckenedge 2y ago
  Ditto. I switched to lead-free for custom keyboards and it didn’t seem too terrible, just had to dial in the temperature more closely to avoid damaging components.
IgorPartola 2y ago
I use lead free solder and haven’t had issues though admittedly I have been soldering as an amateur for decades. You want flux and higher temperature. That’s about the only adjustments. It goes without saying that you should use clean tips and a quality iron.
sitharus 2y ago
Leaded solder is not a big health risk for hobbyists as long as you have proper fume extraction. Metallic lead is poorly absorbed through the skin (it _is_ absorbed from what I can find, but very very slowly), the major risk is from lead vapour and at normal soldering temperatures that’s very minimal. However, lead free tin-silver-copper (SAC) solder is fairly easy to work with. You need a hotter soldering iron at around 300°C, and if soldering PCBs preheating the board to 80-100°C may be needed for good results. It may also take a bit longer for the solder to propagate flow and wet, since the surface needs to be hotter. If you’re using additional flux or non-fluxed solder you’ll need to check it for compatibility, that should be on the data sheet. Most fluxes are fine, but I’ve seen a couple that say not to use with some lead free solder formulations. The main downside to SAC lead free solder is the higher temperature required which can overheat some components, particularly capacitors and ICs in my experience. It’s a case of being careful to keep the heat duration as short as possible. Personally I went back to lead solder and manage my exposure with ventilation and HEPA filters.

theogravity 2y ago

That was extremely informative for such an old set of videos.

moffkalast 2y ago
The first time I've heard of vacuum desoldering, so simple and yet looks like magic compared to struggling with wicks. I have gotta get myself one of those spring loaded plunger things.

jakedata 2y ago

I learned to solder electronics using my father's giant Weller soldering gun. 40 years later I was visiting and had to repair a tiny connection on an electronic candle. I felt like Captain Caveman wielding that giant humming pistol with the lightbulb illuminating the work but by cracky I could still do fine work with that monster tool. This was the longest video I have watched on Youtube in ages. The lack of intrusive ads was refreshing.

brcmthrowaway 2y ago

I would love to play around with electronics but I hate soldering. I hate the toxic smell and fumes, I hate the small bit of metal shards that seem to go everywhere. It's been 100 years since electronics, why no soldering alternative to make connections?!

giantg2 2y ago
Technically I think there are conductive glues, but they aren't right for everything.
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  Gamechanger!
sitharus 2y ago
Soldering makes a metal-metal connection, with the flux ensuring oxides are removed. This makes a very low resistance connection, mechanically it’s very strong, and it’s easy to automate. As a bonus it’s also very easy to undo. Other technologies like glues and crimping have their uses but are less reliable, higher resistance, or difficult to automate. This may change but there’s little demand. Glues have lower conductivity and are harder to remove, mechanical connectors are bulky and not as strong.
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  What about solder that has flux inside m?
  - sitharus 2y ago
    It’s the same as applying flux separately, the flux is displaced by the metal. If you’re applying fluxed solder directly there’s not much point applying separate flux to clean metal. Of course the flux will boil off pretty quickly so you need to use extra if you’re doing something where the solder wire doesn’t directly touch the components, or if the metal is old or previously soldered. The only advantage to non-fluxed solder for most hobbyists is being able to choose your flux, but for most of us rosin is fine and fairly non-toxic.

752963e64 2y ago

[dead]

flyingzucchini 2y ago

“Sodder” - I never pronounced it like that. It was always “Sold-er”

sitharus 2y ago
Sodder is the common American pronunciation, most of the rest of the world says solder.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Nah some of the rest of us say sodder too, solder sounds too close to soldier when you've got an accent haha.
  - sitharus 2y ago
    I did say _most_ for a reason :) Neither pronunciation is universal, but Commonwealth English speakers (except Canada which uses both) normally pronounce the l, American English speakers don’t. Other English varieties vary.
geor9e 2y ago
Interesting. My experience is the opposite. Sodder, soddering is the norm. Every lab, every tech at every company has said it that way. I'm from the west coast USA if thats relevant. If I ever heard someone say "sold-er" I probably dismissed it as someone who only ever read the word, and was sounding it out phonetically.
- ziml77 2y ago
  NJ here. Also say it without the "L".

cwalv 2y ago

When I was in college I worked as an "electronics technician" intern for a few months. We would work through 3-10 page mods to update PCBs from one version to the next. We worked under a scope, and sometimes routed magnet wire all the way across the board, or even thru vias from one side to the other. It was painstaking work; I had a coworker friend who was a true artist. I never got that good at it, but I sometimes miss that kind of work.

plasticbugs 2y ago

This comprehensive film series from PACE is how I learned (and lots of practice) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIT4ra6Mo0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIT4ra6Mo0s

Animats 2y ago

Here's real soldering the Tektronix way.[1] This is the soldering technique for Tektronix ceramic terminal strips, which had silver fired into the surface of the ceramic. The solder used was 3% silver. The innards of Tektronix scopes of that era are just beautiful. Tektronix was the first to make oscilloscopes where the screen was calibrated, and you could measure voltage reasonably accurately. Earlier scopes just let you see the general shape of a waveform. So Tektronix had to develop components and techniques to make electronics behave consistently, over a wide range of temperature and humidity, in portable instruments. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpB5JqGo1co https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpB5JqGo1co

chiph 2y ago

I attended a high-reliability soldering class while in the USAF. The attention to detail needed for a perfect solder joint is phenomenal. I had lots of good-looking joints get rejected for reasons such as exposed copper and a joint that had a convex surface. There is a USAF Technical Order for this, issued by the Navy and shared with the Marine Corps: https://www.robins.af.mil/Portals/59/documents/technicalorders/00-25-259.pdf https://www.robins.af.mil/Portals/59/documents/technicalorde... Cleaning the joint before and after was key. We used isopropyl alcohol in a push-down dispenser bottle, and acid brushes where we cut the bristles down to about 1/4" inch. Another poster asked about lead-free solder, and the military is using it now but has concerns over tin whiskers.