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Man trapped inside driverless car as it spins in circles
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- onetokeoverthe 2y agoNot dumb enough to ever ever get in one of those.
- aetherspawn 2y agoThe guy seemed really impatient, talked over the operator while she was trying to give instructions, and then refused to follow instructions given by the phone operator. Judging by how short the video is, I’m assuming that when he just did the 2-click thing the operator told him to do on his phone, the Waymo probably stopped and let him out. I get vibes he did it on purpose for social media. For example, you’re supposed to be at the airport an hour before your flight, and here he is winging about a Waymo going in circles for a couple mins and threatening to send the bill for his flight to the operator? Eh?
- 3m 2y agoMy first thought was that the guy sounded like an asshole too.
- matsemann 2y agoAre you perfectly rational and calm when trapped in a malfunctioning vehicle that could harm you on a whim? I feel it's unfair to judge this person sitting relaxed in front of a computer.
- Zak 2y agoI'd be impatient too if I was in a robot car that suddenly started driving erratically. There's no way to know whether it's going to continue harmlessly driving around a parking lot or suddenly do something dangerous. I probably would have looked for a stop button in the app before calling a phone number because that's faster. It seems weird there isn't a physical stop button inside the car.
- aetherspawn 2y agoWell, erratic seems like a bit of an exaggeration. It’s continuously driving the same circular route around a parking lot, but it’s not driving on a kerb or anything like that. You can see on the map that it goes into the drop off lane, for some reason thinks it can’t drop him off, so drives back into the car park, turns around, and heads back into the drop off lane. It’s not like it’s stuck in full lock doing donuts.
- kamaal 2y agoC'mon. Sitting inside a malfunctioning robot taxi, helplessly, with no clarity why its doing that. And being afraid it could do some thing more erratic, like going fast and hit a wall, or do some other life threatening thing. Bugs like these are not acceptable in machines where humans sit.
- belter 2y agoIf it does this it might as well drive into a lake or river...
- crazygringo 2y agoThe point is, it's still driving entirely safely. The headline is clickbait -- the car absolutely was not "spinning in circles". It was driving around a parking lot multiple times. I agree that clarity would be appreciated -- since this seems to be a routing issue, if the car explained it couldn't find a spot to stop so it was going around again. But of all the problems a self-driving car could have, safely repeating a loop around a parking lot is about as benign as you can get.
- throwaway290 2y agoToday it is driving in circles, tomorrow it is spinning in circles, next month all your doors lock up in 100 degree heat and your phone dies while you wait for support to pick up. Undefined behavior is undefined behavior.
- 627467 2y ago
- secondcoming 2y agoHow would someone force a driverless car to get stuck in an infinite loop? Also, requiring someone to stop the car via an app is appalling. What if there's no phone reception?
- criddell 2y agoI wonder if opening the door a bit would force the car to stop?
- secondcoming 2y agoNot sure, but the guy did say he couldn't get out.
- netsharc 2y agoI bet it would. I read the comments before watching the video, then I watched it. All the comments saying it's a stressful and dangerous situation because it could potentially become a dangerous situation make me facepalm. It must be American "(over-)abundance of caution"...
- oneeyedpigeon 2y agoOr if your phone is out of battery. Or if the app fails, etc. etc.
- dudeinjapan 2y agoI felt he was rather calm given that he was inside a malfunctioning autonomous vehicle. If a human taxi driver drove me in circles rather than taking me to my flight I would probably send them the bill!
- willvarfar 2y agoIn his defence, I am imagining this being a really stressful time for the passenger. Many people - most, even - would be panicking at this point, and people react differently and irrationally in these kind of not-in-control scenarios.
- posterguy 2y agoI mean, I get vibes you work for Waymo based on how speculative and dismissive you are in this comment... but that's probably not the case, eh? Perhaps the vibes are off?
- cpach 2y ago“Please don’t post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you’re worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we’ll look at the data.” https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- posterguy 2y ago> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. I obviously don't think the person I'm responding to works at Waymo. The person I'm responding to is making a baseless claim that this is a manufactured issue. How do you degrade a discussion that starts at the lowest possible place when the claim is "the vibes are off"
- krisoft 2y ago> I’m assuming that when he just did the 2-click thing the operator told him to do on his phone, the Waymo probably stopped and let him out That's not really good though. It is not his job to fix the car. His protestation that the operator should do it, whatever "it" is, is a reasonable one.
- ArnoVW 2y agoI get the impression he did not want to change apps as that would interrupt the video, and thus ‘proof’
- madmulita 2y ago"He is holding it wrong"
- fallinghawks 2y agoI was askance at him refusing the helpdesk request to do something in the app. One of my hats for decades was support and this feels like someone refusing to tell you what's on their screen, or whether a certain light is on, or to push a button.
- VMG 2y agoI might just jump in the driver's seat and take over
- londons_explore 2y agoAnd that would have worked. That brake pedal is physically connected to the wheels.
- throwaway290 2y agoI heard that some EVs have enough torque to overcome brake friction if it really goes all out. Anyone knows is that true?
- Zak 2y agoThat might be true for some of the extreme performance EVs (Rimac Nevera: 2360 Nm, Lucid Air Sapphire: 1940 Nm), but I think the mechanical brakes can probably overpower the 700 Nm of Waymo's Jaguar I-Pace.
- throwaway290 2y agoFWIW https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/car-continuing-to-move-forward-even-with-brake-pressed-down-all-the-way.317955/page-2 https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/car-continuing-to-mo... I read that Model S accelerates at more than 1g and I think it has 1000 nm of "instant torque" from zero. Roadster has 10000 nm. They say top notch mechanical disc braking can decelerate at less than 1.3g tops. Should be enough for 700 nm but seems like even many consumer grade EV literally can't stop with your foot if electronic brain doesn't cooperate.
- Zak 2y agoThe maximum deceleration is the traction limit of the tires; most braking systems on cars have the mechanical ability to exceed it, which is prevented by ABS on modern cars. If both the motors and the brakes can exceed the traction limit, as with the Nevera, then we don't know which is more powerful. As an aside, spurious ABS activation is a form of runaway car automation that has been possible for decades. It is terrifying to experience.
- tantalor 2y agoIt's driving in a loop, not spinning in circles.
- 0x1ceb00da 2y agoNot just any loop, an infinite loop.
- Ma8ee 2y agoHow do you know it’s infinite?
- secondcoming 2y agoBy watching the video?
- tromp 2y agoI'm sure it's finite given the finite capacity of the car battery (or fuel tank).
- TheDong 2y agoI ran it through my halting problem solver and it told me it doesn't halt, so I know it's infinite
- LandR 2y agoThere's a halting problem joke in here somewhere.
- shinryuu 2y agoReminds me of this enlightening video mapping out a possible future where self-driving cars have dominance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 It's very possible that it won't be the utopia it is portrayed to be.
- derr1 2y agoKnew I wouldn't have to scroll far to find the link to this video. I'm genuinely worried for the future if we keep going down this path. And all the hard work by urbanists will be undone. NJB radicalised me, in the best way possible.
- shinryuu 2y agoSincerely hope that more people in this forum watches it. Since we are at the epicenter of it.
- klibertp 2y agoUtopia? I never experienced it myself, but the footage of the American roads in the video looks as dystopian as it can possibly get already... Somehow, the elevated freeways and what's below them remind me of the worst cyberpunk sprawl nightmares. I guess being free from the constraints of dealing with any buildings or areas older than 200 years doesn't necessarily lead to better designs...
- eknkc 2y agoNever been in one but these things should have a big red stop button on the roof or something. Don't they?
- dudeinjapan 2y agoThe big red button on the roof triggers the ejector seat. To stop you need to press the small blue button next to the cup holder.
- idb_jp 2y agoBut of course. Standard issue from Q Branch. Anyways, Hey dudeinjapan, from also a dude in Japan (nearing 3 decades btw). Pardon the thread hijack because I don't see any way to DM here. I came across your contribution to an old thread (A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry); would like to pick you brains further.
- someothherguyy 2y agoJust the video: https://www.youtube.com/embed/tWPG8alh2Bs https://www.youtube.com/embed/tWPG8alh2Bs
- novaRom 2y agoTaking the whole software/communication/hardware complexity into account, imagine, how many bugs and vulnerabilities may be present in such non-open-source systems? Based on the recent history where we know even 0-day phone exploits exist, how dangerous would it be if a vehicle (or most of them simultaneously) can become being controlled remotely?
- elaus 2y agoWhat a sensationalist headline. The car slowly drives around in circles on a parking lot and the passenger apparently does not feel in danger (being on the phone with CS and taking videos for social media).
- kragen 2y agoThese cars need an emergency stop button which brings the car to a halt as fast as could plausibly be safe and then opens the doors. This is standard equipment on all industrial machinery and used to be standard equipment on all trains as well; I got into a lot of trouble once for pulling the emergency stop cord on a train when I was young. The inconvenience and occasional danger of unwarranted emergency stops is almost certain to be outweighed by the lives saved in the rarer cases where the E-stop is necessary.
- mattlondon 2y agoPresumably opening the door would stop it? I would hope that would be something they thought about and do not lock the passengers in...
- LocalH 2y agoI wouldn't assume anything about a modern system
- oneeyedpigeon 2y agoHe said "I can't get out the car", which suggests otherwise.
- kragen 2y agoMaybe he was afraid to try because he thought that opening the door of a moving car would be dangerous? It is.
- technothrasher 2y ago> I got into a lot of trouble once for pulling the emergency stop cord on a train when I was young. You are the hero of every young child that has ever been on a train and wondered what would happen when they pulled that cord. I know that certainly was a dream of mine when I was four or so. I couldn't understand why my dad was so insistent I not try it.
- psychlops 2y ago
- aikinai 2y ago"Spins" and "trapped" are extremely disingenuous. Terrible headline.
- oneeyedpigeon 2y ago"Spins" is an exaggeration, but "trapped" seems to be accurate. In what way wasn't he trapped?
- alex1138 2y agoThis has to be pretty rare for Waymo? I haven't heard too many horror stories
- calrain 2y agoThis is a nightmare of a situation. It's true that it's probably over in a short time, but that is easily a stressful enough situation to cause people to have panic attacks, heart attacks, and have a range of other issues. I would almost argue that it's negligent of Waymo to not have a kill switch they can remotely fire, and then another layer of kill switch, and then another 5 layers of kill switches... You can't fail to control a driverless car under any circumstance.
- londons_explore 2y agoWaymo rider support seems to be overly limited in their abilities. Requiring the user to press buttons on an app, and not being able to do it for them is just one example. Plenty of other videos show they can't control the car, and all they can do is talk to the user. At a minimum, they should have the ability to stop the car and drive it, remote control, at 1 mph, to get it unstuck or out of the way.
- whstl 2y ago> Waymo rider support seems to be overly limited in their abilities. Yep. Like virtually every phone support person ever. You would think that with driverless cars this would be different.
- acomjean 2y agoI’m torn. If waymo can remote control drive the security implications…. Maybe the solution is a car rental service where the car drives to you, you drive where you want to go, then just leave the car. In Boston anyway navigating pickup/ drop off at the airport is tricky for people.
- hmmm-i-wonder 2y agoSeems like he could have ended the ride but didn't, and refused when instructed to knowing he wouldn't get his video to post online. Not sure acting the ignorant consumer makes me trust the supposed dangerous situation you are in isn't manufactured in some way.
- seydor 2y agoI appreciate we have to defend the driving system and nobody was harmed. But for every such mishap the reminder should be that this has to be fixed only once.
- GnarfGnarf 2y agoThe car should have an option to stop, let the passenger & baggage out, then resume its search for a parking spot. Or leave altogether since it no longer needs to be in the airport parking lot. Still, typical of poorly designed software.
- voidUpdate 2y agoWere the doors locked, or could he have just opened one and gotten out at any time (obviously when it was going slowly) ? It just seems irresponsible to lock someone inside a car, but then if they weren't, then he wasn't exactly "trapped"
- redeux 2y agoYou're suggesting that he should what? Tuck and roll out of the vehicle and risk being run over as the first course of action?
- voidUpdate 2y agoI mean... yeah. the car isn't exactly going fast, and if you get out of the other side then you're on the outside of the circle so you're not really likely to get run over, especially if you just do a little jump rather than rolling on the floor
- jchw 2y agoI wish the video didn't end so quickly, because I'm actually curious what exactly had to happen next. I'm guessing having active involvement in both the passenger in the car and the support staff is a feature, since you wouldn't want rogue support operators to be able to just bring cars to abrupt halts or worse, so if the robot driver is unable to pull over safely, it sort of makes sense to require at least some sanity checking from the passengers themselves. Of course, it's reasonable to be frustrated, especially if you're in a hurry, but anyone who has been in a vehicle accident in an Uber or taxi will know that there's just some inherent risk involved when you're getting into a car with another driver, just as there is risk involved when getting into a car and driving yourself, and I think the idea that a robot driver could fail and get stuck is something that you just have to be mindful of and account for, the same way you have to be mindful of the risk of getting stuck on an elevator. Without seeing the remainder of the altercation it's hard to judge if Waymo's design is lacking for fallbacks here. Another question would be what can be done if the passenger can't access the Waymo app; would they have to jump into the driver's seat?
- klohto 2y agoThis is the futurist that cannot figure out how to stop a Waymo from the app – https://mikejohns.ceo https://mikejohns.ceo "Mike Johns is an exceptional AI expert speaker specializing in AI", whatever you say man
- jordansmithnz 2y agoWhile this did happen and obviously isn’t great, there’s a more skeptical side too. The ‘trapped’ man is the CEO of an AI consulting firm. He posted the video to linked in, didn’t press the abort button, and had a relatively successful customer support experience (5 minutes delayed and not charged for the trip). Apparently he is using a PR firm to handle questions. Make of that what you will. Waymo can clearly do better, although for what it’s worth — my worst uber experiences have been much worse than this (legitimately unsafe driving decisions).
- belter 2y agoThe Abort button does not Abort. It looks for a place to stop. Why would that work on this situation: https://youtu.be/5QFGGqrA5os?t=3136 https://youtu.be/5QFGGqrA5os?t=3136 (52:16)
- karim79 2y agoI've always known that the Infinite Loop would some day catch up with the physical world, and here we are.
- LinuxBender 2y agoWhat is the psychological term for people that defend defective heavy machinery that are not yet ready for production and yet being tested in production and in the general public? This will be the most highly unpopular opinion with this audience but if a human drove around in circles potentially blocking other drivers even in a parking lot a cop would pull them over and possibly have them take a sobriety test. If they passed they would get a warning and the incident would be logged with dispatch. Continued behavior would result in a ticket at best and drivers license suspension at worst. Please stop giving exciting tech a break and expect more. I am starting to lean towards requiring hardware and software developers and their respective companies that work on public heavy machinery to have federal certifications that can be revoked if they are moving fast and breaking things in public. Broken navigation in heavy machinery is a risk to the general public. This case was benign but the next one may not be. I expect much more by now. I would expect that if anything cars would be actively protecting humans. If a toddler wanders into the road without a parent I would expect them by now to use a PA speaker to alert people and actively create a blockade around the child with only room for humans to pass, flash all their lights continuously and video stream to safety personnel on duty with the vehicle maker.
- Zak 2y agoThere's a belief in some circles that because technologies like self-driving have the potential to save lives, any failure to develop that technology as quickly as possible is akin to manslaughter. I don't think it's a mental illness, just an extreme form of utilitarian ethics combined with an unreasonable faith in the outcome.
- LinuxBender 2y agoThat makes sense but I think that if they wish to sacrifice humans in the name of innovation that in theory can save lives, it should be tested in locations where all the humans opted-in to this level of sacrifice. Surely there must be a tech community of people that think like this where such in-production testing can occur. Every port of entry into that zone can have checkpoints requiring vehicles and pedestrians to display an opt-in QR code and some incentive to get them to participate. I know we can't waive negligence but at least we could contain the blast radius to a known zone.
- xnx 2y agoDupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42629120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42629120
- beanjuiceII 2y agoi actually felt dizzy just watching that
- euroderf 2y agoDo these cars have a big orange button that connects you straight to support? Or do you have to get out your phone and open the app and dig around for the right button while your ride is spinning in circles?
- ChrisArchitect 2y ago[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42629120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42629120
- etiam 2y agoI was hoping for slightly more of an Asimov echo in this than it actually seems to present :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runaround_(story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runaround_(story)
- bfrog 2y agoBut I keep hearing AI is the future! Bleak indeed
- thrill 2y agoIt's not "spinning".
- qgin 2y agoFrom the headline, you wouldn't know that they stopped the car about 15 seconds after he was connected to the remote assistance.
- CHB0403085482 2y agoThe end result of relying on self-driving cars too much? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0
- kcplate 2y agoThe amount of apologetic comments for a potentially dangerous malfunction of tech on this thread is amazing.