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Marc Lépine's manifesto (he walked into Montréal's Polytechnique and killed 14 women and shot several more, he was blaming them studying and feminism for his no

Marc Lépine's manifesto (he walked into Montréal's Polytechnique and killed 14 women and shot several more, he was blaming them studying and feminism for his not getting accepted) is treated as gospel on incel forums. Many acts of incel/misogynist terrorism have been committed by people who frequented such forums. Ideology is not videogames and does have an impact on people's actions. You can look at the whole history of the 20th centuries' wars for another very obvious example.

_Algernon_ 2y ago
I don't need others to decide what ideology I need to be protected from for me. I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Others are responsible for their own actions. Don't impose information control on me because others do stupid shit.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Indeed. That's only to justify blatant censorship. Reading books doesn't cause people to kill other people. If someone kills someone after reading a book, that person already had huge issues and was on the edge to kill already, and instead of a addressing the issue by investing more in helping those with mental illnesses, we take the dumb cheap and easy way out of blaming books, video games, forums, incels, toxic masculinity, etc. Everyone is quick to blame incels but nobody asks why do men become incels in the first place and how to prevent that by addressing the causes and not the effects. The truth is our current society has a disproportionate lack of safety nets and help available to males and male issues, when compared to females, hence why there's 10x the rate of suicides and homelessness for males vs females, and is also one of the reasons why men have statistically been going more conservative and right wing in the last decade or so. Yet nobody talks about this or wants to do anything to address this and just resorts to shaming men who draw attention to this as incels and "far right" and calls it a day. When society takes away young men's communities (previously it was the church) and purpose in life, their prospect of building a family, good job (men used to be able to support a family by bolting bumpers to Fords in a factory) and owning a home, and demonize them for the sins of their fathers (patriarchy and male Privilege) while depriving them of any help, it's no surprise they become radicalized against the society that hates them and that void gets filled by manosphere bros who tell them it's the fault of the Rothschilds and that all women are hoes.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    "Won't someone think of young men!" is a point that won't travel far because the world is owned and ruled by men, young and old. Of course, most men are poor and powerless in comparison. So they (we) rage against those we do have some power over. Changing healthcare and the culture is necessary. Because healthcare is only effective when men are willing to accept it, not cling to harmful ideas like "only the weak take meds / do therapy / cry / talk about their feelings / avoid violence". But it's also like trying to stop shit rolling down hill. Ultimately we need to stop the source of the problems and limit the damage of those that slip through the cracks. And the manosphere and machismo culture are part of the problem, not innocent symptoms. Said another way, the problem is multi-faceted and there is no silver bullet.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >"Won't someone think of young men!" is a point that won't travel far because the world is owned and ruled by men, young and old If you demonize all current generation men in such a reductionist radical fashion, because of a handful of bad apples of men from previous generations, why are you surprised men now become radicalized against women and against society demonizing them? If someone would hate you and discriminante you based on an immutable characteristic like gender, wouldn't you be upset and vocal about it and look to vote for someone who promises to be on your side? How can we punish a group of people today for the original sin? >Because healthcare is only effective when men are willing to accept it Most men aren't in the luxurious position to be able to refuse care that's not even offered to them in the first place. Hence the 10x more homelessness and suicide than women. If you're a woman in risk of unemployment, homelessness or suicide, you have dozens of decent options of help available for you both public and private. If you're a man in the same situation, you have much fewer and of lower quality options or even none at all, or worse, a lot of "help" available for men is just telling them how they're priviledged and they need to shut up and man up and stop bitching about it. You can't tell me with a straight face there is no gender discrimination and anti-male bias here. >And the manosphere and machismo culture are part of the problem, not innocent symptoms. No. The core problem is societal anti male bias and discrimination which you pointed out yourself in the first phrase. The manosphere is not the cause, it's the release valve of the pent up frustrations of an entire generation.
pessimizer 2y ago
You argue against things you disagree with, you don't suppress them. When you suppress them, you just turn them into mystery religions. Also, incels don't need a manifesto to learn how to hate women. The reason they were looking for the manifesto is because they hate women.
- netsharc 2y ago
  Perhaps the issue with "the Internet enables self-learning" is that people just read the arguments they like and dismiss the ones they don't like; however perverse it is, there's some merit to an authority figure/your friends in a classroom saying "you're wrong" -- but then again, in the Taliban-ruled areas of the United States they teach that evolution is a lie. I can see how a manifesto saying "the truth is, women are [bla bla bla], therefore [bla bla]" can make sense in a superficial level (and gives twats like Jordan Peterson an air of intelligence), and can be persuasive to incels. Of course suppression isn't the answer either.

_Algernon_ 2y ago

I don't need others to decide what ideology I need to be protected from for me. I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Others are responsible for their own actions. Don't impose information control on me because others do stupid shit.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>I'm much more concerned about the ideology of the people who think information control is justifiable. Indeed. That's only to justify blatant censorship. Reading books doesn't cause people to kill other people. If someone kills someone after reading a book, that person already had huge issues and was on the edge to kill already, and instead of a addressing the issue by investing more in helping those with mental illnesses, we take the dumb cheap and easy way out of blaming books, video games, forums, incels, toxic masculinity, etc. Everyone is quick to blame incels but nobody asks why do men become incels in the first place and how to prevent that by addressing the causes and not the effects. The truth is our current society has a disproportionate lack of safety nets and help available to males and male issues, when compared to females, hence why there's 10x the rate of suicides and homelessness for males vs females, and is also one of the reasons why men have statistically been going more conservative and right wing in the last decade or so. Yet nobody talks about this or wants to do anything to address this and just resorts to shaming men who draw attention to this as incels and "far right" and calls it a day. When society takes away young men's communities (previously it was the church) and purpose in life, their prospect of building a family, good job (men used to be able to support a family by bolting bumpers to Fords in a factory) and owning a home, and demonize them for the sins of their fathers (patriarchy and male Privilege) while depriving them of any help, it's no surprise they become radicalized against the society that hates them and that void gets filled by manosphere bros who tell them it's the fault of the Rothschilds and that all women are hoes.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  "Won't someone think of young men!" is a point that won't travel far because the world is owned and ruled by men, young and old. Of course, most men are poor and powerless in comparison. So they (we) rage against those we do have some power over. Changing healthcare and the culture is necessary. Because healthcare is only effective when men are willing to accept it, not cling to harmful ideas like "only the weak take meds / do therapy / cry / talk about their feelings / avoid violence". But it's also like trying to stop shit rolling down hill. Ultimately we need to stop the source of the problems and limit the damage of those that slip through the cracks. And the manosphere and machismo culture are part of the problem, not innocent symptoms. Said another way, the problem is multi-faceted and there is no silver bullet.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >"Won't someone think of young men!" is a point that won't travel far because the world is owned and ruled by men, young and old If you demonize all current generation men in such a reductionist radical fashion, because of a handful of bad apples of men from previous generations, why are you surprised men now become radicalized against women and against society demonizing them? If someone would hate you and discriminante you based on an immutable characteristic like gender, wouldn't you be upset and vocal about it and look to vote for someone who promises to be on your side? How can we punish a group of people today for the original sin? >Because healthcare is only effective when men are willing to accept it Most men aren't in the luxurious position to be able to refuse care that's not even offered to them in the first place. Hence the 10x more homelessness and suicide than women. If you're a woman in risk of unemployment, homelessness or suicide, you have dozens of decent options of help available for you both public and private. If you're a man in the same situation, you have much fewer and of lower quality options or even none at all, or worse, a lot of "help" available for men is just telling them how they're priviledged and they need to shut up and man up and stop bitching about it. You can't tell me with a straight face there is no gender discrimination and anti-male bias here. >And the manosphere and machismo culture are part of the problem, not innocent symptoms. No. The core problem is societal anti male bias and discrimination which you pointed out yourself in the first phrase. The manosphere is not the cause, it's the release valve of the pent up frustrations of an entire generation.

pessimizer 2y ago

You argue against things you disagree with, you don't suppress them. When you suppress them, you just turn them into mystery religions. Also, incels don't need a manifesto to learn how to hate women. The reason they were looking for the manifesto is because they hate women.

netsharc 2y ago
Perhaps the issue with "the Internet enables self-learning" is that people just read the arguments they like and dismiss the ones they don't like; however perverse it is, there's some merit to an authority figure/your friends in a classroom saying "you're wrong" -- but then again, in the Taliban-ruled areas of the United States they teach that evolution is a lie. I can see how a manifesto saying "the truth is, women are [bla bla bla], therefore [bla bla]" can make sense in a superficial level (and gives twats like Jordan Peterson an air of intelligence), and can be persuasive to incels. Of course suppression isn't the answer either.