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And what if the system doesn't work? Your argument has the presupposition that the political system is a working democracy. Stability, and security are not a g

And what if the system doesn't work? Your argument has the presupposition that the political system is a working democracy. Stability, and security are not a given for all.

jl6 2y ago
Every talking head believes the system doesn’t work. Trump just got elected largely on a platform of claiming the current system isn’t working. What are we supposed to do, switch from democracy to vigilante murder as a system of government?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- savemangione 2y ago
  And yet the US were created by bloody revolution, preserved by bloody civil war, and made prosperous by countless bloody coups, wars, etc. Perhaps the problem is that democracy isn't really any different than any other form of country-level government. Perhaps we lost for ever when our ancestors started founding cities a few thousand years ago.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  Maybe they are right, the current system doesn't work, and the answer is to switch to democracy? Plenty of sensible policies have popular support in America and have done for a while. Americans are not as dumb as their politics would suggest.
  - jl6 2y ago
    America is a “flawed democracy”: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-amer... The path to improving it does not go via vigilante murder. Some form of immigration control now has majority support. Should people go round executing immigrants because that would be more directly democratic?
    - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
      So I'm arguing for democracy. I'm a fan of it and you see a lot of prominent people even within the US (Theil, the GOP, Curtis Yarvin, as well as burned out doomers) arguing and working against it so that is not just pointless posturing. Democracy generally works well, and America becoming a poster child for "Why Democracy is bad" is a development that could lead to real horrors, at home and across the globe. You don't have to condone political violence to support more democracy to avoid it. Even in nations, like the US, where political violence is celebrated every single day.
Aloha 2y ago
Trump being elected again arguably is a sign the system is working, that people when unhappy with the status quo were able to change their government to someone they feel will represent their interests more. Now, I have no love to lose for Trump, I think he's a asshole, braggart and charlatan - but his election is a sign we can enact change - I dont think Trump will bring much real change, but its a sign the system works. The only reason that this doesn't happen more often is the electorate is mostly disengaged from the races that do matter, and tied down by partisanship.
- saikia81 2y ago
  It seems you contradict yourself. Yes change is Trump's platform. But you agree he won't change anything. So the system has the illusion of change, but no proof it can actually facilitate it.
  - Aloha 2y ago
    No, not at all - it means that the power of the people to vote their choice is alive and well - that doesn't mean we're putting good candidates up, or that people underestimate the difficulty of wholesale systemic change - it just means we can vote for who we choose.

And what if the system doesn't work? Your argument has the presupposition that the political system is a working democracy. Stability, and security are not a given for all.

jl6 2y ago

Every talking head believes the system doesn’t work. Trump just got elected largely on a platform of claiming the current system isn’t working. What are we supposed to do, switch from democracy to vigilante murder as a system of government?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
savemangione 2y ago
And yet the US were created by bloody revolution, preserved by bloody civil war, and made prosperous by countless bloody coups, wars, etc. Perhaps the problem is that democracy isn't really any different than any other form of country-level government. Perhaps we lost for ever when our ancestors started founding cities a few thousand years ago.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
Maybe they are right, the current system doesn't work, and the answer is to switch to democracy? Plenty of sensible policies have popular support in America and have done for a while. Americans are not as dumb as their politics would suggest.
- jl6 2y ago
  America is a “flawed democracy”: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-america-is-a-flawed-democracy https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2024/03/21/why-amer... The path to improving it does not go via vigilante murder. Some form of immigration control now has majority support. Should people go round executing immigrants because that would be more directly democratic?
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    So I'm arguing for democracy. I'm a fan of it and you see a lot of prominent people even within the US (Theil, the GOP, Curtis Yarvin, as well as burned out doomers) arguing and working against it so that is not just pointless posturing. Democracy generally works well, and America becoming a poster child for "Why Democracy is bad" is a development that could lead to real horrors, at home and across the globe. You don't have to condone political violence to support more democracy to avoid it. Even in nations, like the US, where political violence is celebrated every single day.

Aloha 2y ago

Trump being elected again arguably is a sign the system is working, that people when unhappy with the status quo were able to change their government to someone they feel will represent their interests more. Now, I have no love to lose for Trump, I think he's a asshole, braggart and charlatan - but his election is a sign we can enact change - I dont think Trump will bring much real change, but its a sign the system works. The only reason that this doesn't happen more often is the electorate is mostly disengaged from the races that do matter, and tied down by partisanship.

saikia81 2y ago
It seems you contradict yourself. Yes change is Trump's platform. But you agree he won't change anything. So the system has the illusion of change, but no proof it can actually facilitate it.
- Aloha 2y ago
  No, not at all - it means that the power of the people to vote their choice is alive and well - that doesn't mean we're putting good candidates up, or that people underestimate the difficulty of wholesale systemic change - it just means we can vote for who we choose.