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I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are

I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are some people in prison that like being badass and the hero and this job seems like an excellent opportunity. Your point that they would rather fight fire than be in prison strikes you as they must really hate prison when some people are just wired differently and may want the risk. Maybe they're just bored in prison.

mulmen 2y ago
Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
  - mulmen 2y ago
    Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
      - mulmen 2y ago
        > What's your definition of slave? A person who is forced to do work. > Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? They are slaves as long as they are forced to work. > What would make them not slaves? Not being forced to work. > Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort? I have no idea where you got this impression. If you need it spelled out then no, I am not opposed to all forms of punishment.
    - xeromal 2y ago
      It sounds like you'd consider volunteers as slaves then.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        Volunteers aren’t forced to work so no, they aren’t slaves.

mulmen 2y ago

Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)

s1artibartfast 2y ago
I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
- mulmen 2y ago
  Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
    - mulmen 2y ago
      > What's your definition of slave? A person who is forced to do work. > Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? They are slaves as long as they are forced to work. > What would make them not slaves? Not being forced to work. > Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort? I have no idea where you got this impression. If you need it spelled out then no, I am not opposed to all forms of punishment.
  - xeromal 2y ago
    It sounds like you'd consider volunteers as slaves then.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Volunteers aren’t forced to work so no, they aren’t slaves.