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> yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it i

by mulmen 2y ago

> yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.

xeromal 2y ago
I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are some people in prison that like being badass and the hero and this job seems like an excellent opportunity. Your point that they would rather fight fire than be in prison strikes you as they must really hate prison when some people are just wired differently and may want the risk. Maybe they're just bored in prison.
- mulmen 2y ago
  Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
        mulmen 2y ago
        > What's your definition of slave? A person who is forced to do work. > Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? They are slaves as long as they are forced to work. > What would make them not slaves? Not being forced to work. > Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort? I have no idea where you got this impression. If you need it spelled out then no, I am not opposed to all forms of punishment.
      - xeromal 2y ago
        It sounds like you'd consider volunteers as slaves then.
        mulmen 2y ago
        Volunteers aren’t forced to work so no, they aren’t slaves.
solatic 2y ago
> To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. Makes perfect sense to me, even if the prison was a five-star hotel. The human mind is hard-wired to want to explore and get out. Universally, one of the most difficult parts of being in prison is being forced to stay within the prison walls. The fact that these walls exist is a necessary compromise between keeping society safe and the natural rights of those imprisoned. Any opportunity to get outside the walls will of course be desirable.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mulmen 2y ago
  > The human mind is hard-wired to want to explore and get out. We also have a self preservation instinct.
  - solatic 2y ago
    True, but it doesn't trigger when you hear about the fire in the abstract. It triggers only once you are face-to-face with the smoke and wall of fire.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Right, this is the loophole in the human psyche that California is exploiting in their slaves.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        how so?
        mulmen 2y ago
        The desire to escape is strong in prison when the decision to fight fires is made. The self preservation instinct doesn’t kick in until the danger becomes real at which point it is too late. This difference in perception is what prison labor exploits in prisoners.
JoeAltmaier 2y ago
Again with the negative spin. That isn't the alternative they face, not at all. It's the benefit of promised freedom early that is in play. Not that prison is unendurable (many endure it). It's that freedom is preferable. The entire point of prison after all.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. Given the recurring history of California prisons being found (systematically, not just in cases involving special mistreatment of individual prisoners) in violation of the 8th Amendment and the way that has been the main driver of California prison reform over the years, that's not a minor issue.

by mulmen 2y ago

xeromal 2y ago

I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are some people in prison that like being badass and the hero and this job seems like an excellent opportunity. Your point that they would rather fight fire than be in prison strikes you as they must really hate prison when some people are just wired differently and may want the risk. Maybe they're just bored in prison.

mulmen 2y ago
Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
  - mulmen 2y ago
    Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
      - mulmen 2y ago
        > What's your definition of slave? A person who is forced to do work. > Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? They are slaves as long as they are forced to work. > What would make them not slaves? Not being forced to work. > Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort? I have no idea where you got this impression. If you need it spelled out then no, I am not opposed to all forms of punishment.
    - xeromal 2y ago
      It sounds like you'd consider volunteers as slaves then.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        Volunteers aren’t forced to work so no, they aren’t slaves.

solatic 2y ago

> To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. Makes perfect sense to me, even if the prison was a five-star hotel. The human mind is hard-wired to want to explore and get out. Universally, one of the most difficult parts of being in prison is being forced to stay within the prison walls. The fact that these walls exist is a necessary compromise between keeping society safe and the natural rights of those imprisoned. Any opportunity to get outside the walls will of course be desirable.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mulmen 2y ago
> The human mind is hard-wired to want to explore and get out. We also have a self preservation instinct.
- solatic 2y ago
  True, but it doesn't trigger when you hear about the fire in the abstract. It triggers only once you are face-to-face with the smoke and wall of fire.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    Right, this is the loophole in the human psyche that California is exploiting in their slaves.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      how so?
      - mulmen 2y ago
        The desire to escape is strong in prison when the decision to fight fires is made. The self preservation instinct doesn’t kick in until the danger becomes real at which point it is too late. This difference in perception is what prison labor exploits in prisoners.

JoeAltmaier 2y ago

Again with the negative spin. That isn't the alternative they face, not at all. It's the benefit of promised freedom early that is in play. Not that prison is unendurable (many endure it). It's that freedom is preferable. The entire point of prison after all.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. Given the recurring history of California prisons being found (systematically, not just in cases involving special mistreatment of individual prisoners) in violation of the 8th Amendment and the way that has been the main driver of California prison reform over the years, that's not a minor issue.