4 ms·

It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already p

It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane

mulmen 2y ago
> It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
  - mulmen 2y ago
    > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.
    - xeromal 2y ago
      I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are some people in prison that like being badass and the hero and this job seems like an excellent opportunity. Your point that they would rather fight fire than be in prison strikes you as they must really hate prison when some people are just wired differently and may want the risk. Maybe they're just bored in prison.
      - mulmen 2y ago
        Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
        mulmen 2y ago
        Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
  - pkulak 2y ago
    You can’t give someone only two options, one less bad, then claim there was a free choice made.
    - wtcactus 2y ago
      Yes, getting into prison after you committed a crime and were condemned for it, is usually not a free choice.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Totally agree. Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        > Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice. It is literally not in California (though which work, within bounds that differ by prisoner, may be), and California this year defeated a ballot proposition which would have made your claim true.
        wtcactus 2y ago
        The free choice is to whether commit or not the crime that puts you in prison. After that, until you pay your debt to society, the free choices are over.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        bdangubic 2y ago
        Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that condition, and in many cases the prison firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally? Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. >firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against such a system? >Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen. What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation? If the proposition was passed, and the State acted in accord with it (as I stated before, not just the passage, but the action), then the labor would not be coerced, because the mechanisms by which it is currently coerced would be prohibited. That was the whole point of the amendment, banning California continuing to exploit the penal servitude exception to the 13th Amendment ban on slavery and involuntary servitude.

mulmen 2y ago

> It's one of the most sought after opportunities in prison. "In prison" is doing a lot of work there. > And the state can't afford to pay them fully. Then the state can't afford to be on fire. An externality that isn't accounted for. > Considering they want to do it, and the state already pays a huge amount to house prisoners, its not that insane. I'm really shocked to hear someone just casually say slavery in the United States in 2025 isn't insane. I mean it's legal so maybe I am the crazy one but I'm personally troubled that this practice is going on. I don't even like that my state uses prison labor for license plates and that's not life threatening.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.
- mulmen 2y ago
  > yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. Agree. I find it fascinating that perspectives can be so different. > It it is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. Yep, no objection from me. > I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative. To me it's the part where prison is apparently even worse than risking your life fighting fires for free. The incentives here are perverse. The worse prison conditions are the more "appealing" still-awful conditions become. Access to free labor creates an incentive for the state to create more of that labor. Rehabilitation becomes a threat to the practitioners. I think the biggest difference is that you believe there is a choice and I don't think that choice is meaningful.
  - xeromal 2y ago
    I don't have much skin in this argument but I'll offer one more perspective. Some people enjoy work and some people enjoy risk taking. I have a feeling that are some people in prison that like being badass and the hero and this job seems like an excellent opportunity. Your point that they would rather fight fire than be in prison strikes you as they must really hate prison when some people are just wired differently and may want the risk. Maybe they're just bored in prison.
    - mulmen 2y ago
      Yeah to me this sounds like letting slaves pick their bunks. It’s technically autonomy but not in any meaningful way. It’s certainly not a free person choosing their living arrangements. I guess if you don’t consider prison labor to be slavery then it might be palatable but I just can’t draw that distinction. Especially given the history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks
        mulmen 2y ago
        Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves? Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?
- pkulak 2y ago
  You can’t give someone only two options, one less bad, then claim there was a free choice made.
  - wtcactus 2y ago
    Yes, getting into prison after you committed a crime and were condemned for it, is usually not a free choice.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Totally agree. Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice. It is literally not in California (though which work, within bounds that differ by prisoner, may be), and California this year defeated a ballot proposition which would have made your claim true.
      - wtcactus 2y ago
        The free choice is to whether commit or not the crime that puts you in prison. After that, until you pay your debt to society, the free choices are over.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that condition, and in many cases the prison firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally? Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. >firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against such a system? >Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen. What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation? If the proposition was passed, and the State acted in accord with it (as I stated before, not just the passage, but the action), then the labor would not be coerced, because the mechanisms by which it is currently coerced would be prohibited. That was the whole point of the amendment, banning California continuing to exploit the penal servitude exception to the 13th Amendment ban on slavery and involuntary servitude.