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You're making some assumptions here that I don't think hold. OP is likely able to do this because they have a longer circadian cycle (though I think it's still

You're making some assumptions here that I don't think hold. OP is likely able to do this because they have a longer circadian cycle (though I think it's still less than 28 hours) A person who might naturally have a 24.4 hour cycle without external stimuli (which is the average sleep researchers found) will likely have problems trying to adjust to a 26 hour cycle or longer, because even if they push themselves to stay up beyond the beginning of the sleep phase of their cycle on a regular basis, there is a good chance they'll wake up closer to the end of their sleep phase, and therefore might not get enough sleep. It's better to follow a sleep cycle tailored to your own circadian rhythm, which for most people conveniently aligns pretty well with the natural day. I say this as someone with non-24 who often does free-running sleep (where I've found my own cycle to be a little over 26 hours in winters, and closer to 24 hours in the summer)

bix6 2y ago
How do you figure out your cycle time?
- iambateman 2y ago
  This isnt scientific but I’ve found that I “feel like” going to bed about 24.5 hours after I went to bed the day before. Without external stimuli, it’s very hard to avoid drifting into staying up very late at night for me.
  - binary132 2y ago
    This sounds suspiciously like “I tend to stay up later and later every night unless I force myself to go to bed on time” — which I suspect is pretty common, it certainly is for me. I’ll start staying up till 3, 4, 5, or later if I’m not on a schedule. Having kids helps.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      It is suspiciously similar because they are the same exact thing. The whole premise is how many hours is a comfortable wake-sleep cycle.
      - pcthrowaway 2y ago
        I don't think so actually. If you can "make yourself" go to bed at a "normal time" then you don't have non-24. People with non-24 usually have a longer than 24-hour cycle and can't "make themselves" go to sleep consistently at the same time (people with 24.5 or 25-hour days probably have some success with this though because if they stay up a bit later one day and still wake up at the same time, then by the time a proper bedtime rolls around they'll be close enough to their the sleep phase of their cycle, and tired enough to fall asleep at that time)
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I'm skeptical. Chronic sleep deprivation does a pretty good job of helping people go to sleep at the same time each day. Either way, it seems like a arbitrary distinction to make. If Bob is happier and more productive on a 26 hour schedule, but can unhappily live on a 24 hour schedule, why doest that count? It seems the relevant Factor is what their natural schedule actually is, given the circumstances etc
        pcthrowaway 2y ago
        Why would anyone be happier on a 26-hour schedule if they can get an adequate amount of sleep and go to sleep close to the same time on 24-hour schedule? I can see it going the other way, where if your natural rhythm is 22 hours you can likely force yourself to stay awake to align with 24 (and likely would be much happier than free-running on a 22-hour clock). Speaking from personal experience, if I could consistently stick to a 24-hour schedule, I would. And I think most people with non-24 have the same position (and have likely tried many things before giving up, as tossing and turning for hours every night and then still not sleeping enough is pretty unpleasant). Additionally, if Bob's rhythm is 26 hours then his sleep cycle is shifting ahead by 2 hours every night regardless of when he falls asleep. If he is able to fall asleep at the same time every night, his sleep cycle presumably isn't shifting, and even if 26 hours might be more natural for him, he's able to sync his cycle to 24 hours regardless. So I don't think this would qualify them for non-24, as the circadian rhythm isn't shifting every day. On the other hand, if Bob chooses to sleep 26 hours for whatever reason, perhaps he could be said to have it then? It's just inconceivable to me that someone would actually choose that given the option. It's worth noting that the average human circadian rhythm is closer to 24.5 hours when external stimuli are removed. So it doesn't strike me as too different from Bob; people are nevertheless regulated to 24 hours by daylight and not said to be non-24, even if, like Bob, their natural state might be to sleep more.
    - euroderf 2y ago
      Yup, a kid is a driver for regularity in sleep cycles.
      - Freak_NL 2y ago
        This makes me wonder about the point he briefly touches at, but otherwise leaves out: his partner. Are there no children planned at all? Have they already raised kids and are done with this? Is he planning to break up with her? You can't do this and raise a child¹ without being, well, an asshole. He would force the mother to do all the fixed daily things, and the child to navigate your availability using your private clock. 1: After they've settled into a stable daily sleeping rhythm of course. For a baby this system might even be useful some nights (but not others).
        binary132 2y ago
        perhaps Junior will follow in Father’s footsteps. :)
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
  If you are able to make relatively few commitments for a month, go to sleep when you feel tired. Sleep as much as feels good. Track it in a spreadsheet. Some people with non-24 have very regular sleep/wake cycles. I'm not as fortunate, but in the winter will tend towards 24-29 hour days, with an average just over 27 (perhaps this winter has even been a little under 27 as I've been more physically active) In the summer it's close enough to 24 hours that I can stick to a 24-hour schedule most of the time.
  - bix6 2y ago
    Interesting I’ll have to track it a bit. I’ve always adjusted a bit in winter but never thought to measure / optimize it.
- lloeki 2y ago
  > How You need a significant period of time without any time-bound obligation (or even any obligation at all). Any need for an alarm or anything that you'd possibly materialise in a calendar needs to be removed. You need a room which is pitch black at night (e.g blocks street lights, no leds), yet still allows a tiny bit of sunlight (rationale: without cues the circadian cycle extends up to 48h, there was an experiment about that) Then, once you have that, start freewheeling, just when you feel tired go rest and when you wake up get up. It'll be a mess at first, for two reasons. First you may be unable to properly recognise the "I need to take some rest" signal: we're trained by life to largely ignore it. Second, you need to pay off any debt, sleep, physical, mind, that would play a role in altering your base cycle. Have fun, work out, meditate, go see a therapist even. In a nutshell, find your balance. Once you have recovered from everything, once all biasing sources have been removed, then sleep will converge to some rhythm, which carries some error margin, so you can only observe it statistically over time. There's your baseline. It could take months, which more often than not isn't practical to have, so from the above ideal scenario one could devise a protocol that would try to stick as close as possible to it. Source: first principles+anecdata, sample size of 1, double-non-blind protocol; a.k.a myself digging out of a hole. Protocol: 3 week sick leave for burnout x anxiety depression, coincidental breakup (so no SO), went from office to remote working, workout plan, 6 month therapy, statistically reliable sleep/health/performance tracking via watch allowing for outlier identification/retrospective deviation root cause analysis. Result: 0130-0930~30min sleep, 7h45min~5min sleep duration made of two ~4h-ish blocks, 25h~30min cycle. When bound to 24h rhythm, occasional sleepless night leading to 48h day and three aforementioned blocks of sleep (~11h-ish total). From the data it became painfully obvious that I experience delayed sleep phase disorder, took me 6 months to figure the baseline out, and 6 more to confirm, which is quite hard when you don't even know that it is a thing.
  - pcthrowaway 2y ago
    > rationale: without cues the circadian cycle extends up to 48h, there was an experiment about that Do you have a link to this experiment? I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. Studies referenced in the non-24 wikipedia page suggest natural circadian rhythms typically range from 24-25.5 hours for people not getting external cues.
pskfyi 2y ago
Do you have any recommended books or links on this topic?
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
  I haven't read any books on the topic and don't recall any specific articles though I'm sure I've read many. There are some good references in the wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake...), and I've been following https://reddit.com/r/N24 https://reddit.com/r/N24 for a while also.
- photonthug 2y ago
  I’d never suggest that people shouldn’t read books or consult experts but.. sleep is probably like diets in that you can read whatever advice you’re looking to find somewhere. Even after we accept that a dichotomy like typical vs atypical (or night owl vs morning lark; omnivore vs vegetarian) is way too simple.. the more we look the more we keep finding new “types” (like all the flavors of non-24; vegans, paleo, etc). So even reading stuff that’s trying to be rigorous may ultimately just tell you about fads and fashions that might be working for others. Natural variation in people seems to outpace or defy our ability to categorize stuff. To me this hints that there’s really no substitute for experimenting and listening to your body. The hard part is just that this does require some time and space in your life to accomplish, because if you’re going back to basics about stuff like food or sleep then inevitably it’s going to be disruptive until you figure out what works best.
euroderf 2y ago
Data point: I found mine to be between 25 and 26 hours. Probably a contributing factor to difficulty in getting to sleep "at a good hour". OTOH mild sleep deprivation has been shown to counter depression, so there's that.
- zemvpferreira 2y ago
  Likewise but I've found small melatonin doses (plus reducing caffeine to once per day) to really help me conform to a 24 hour day. Worth trying if you haven't.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    I tried melatonin. It gave me nightmares. Weird, but it was repeatable. So, my 0,02€.
    - bemmu 2y ago
      This happens if I take too much melatonin. The dosage in US-sold melatonin is unnecessarily high. Finnish tablets are typically 1.9mg, while US ones can have 10mg in just one.
      - opan 2y ago
        Luckily some people warned about this a lot online (not to take too much, most pills are too much) and I was able to find 1mg tablets on Amazon when I wanted some.
      - mafuy 2y ago
        1mg or less seems to work best. Source: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... I take melatonin (0.2mg via a spray). It is very effective. Nightmares are a recurring problem for me and other users I know, but can be solved with low doses and a lot of discipline.
    - sensanaty 2y ago

bix6 2y ago

How do you figure out your cycle time?

iambateman 2y ago
This isnt scientific but I’ve found that I “feel like” going to bed about 24.5 hours after I went to bed the day before. Without external stimuli, it’s very hard to avoid drifting into staying up very late at night for me.
- binary132 2y ago
  This sounds suspiciously like “I tend to stay up later and later every night unless I force myself to go to bed on time” — which I suspect is pretty common, it certainly is for me. I’ll start staying up till 3, 4, 5, or later if I’m not on a schedule. Having kids helps.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    It is suspiciously similar because they are the same exact thing. The whole premise is how many hours is a comfortable wake-sleep cycle.
    - pcthrowaway 2y ago
      I don't think so actually. If you can "make yourself" go to bed at a "normal time" then you don't have non-24. People with non-24 usually have a longer than 24-hour cycle and can't "make themselves" go to sleep consistently at the same time (people with 24.5 or 25-hour days probably have some success with this though because if they stay up a bit later one day and still wake up at the same time, then by the time a proper bedtime rolls around they'll be close enough to their the sleep phase of their cycle, and tired enough to fall asleep at that time)
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I'm skeptical. Chronic sleep deprivation does a pretty good job of helping people go to sleep at the same time each day. Either way, it seems like a arbitrary distinction to make. If Bob is happier and more productive on a 26 hour schedule, but can unhappily live on a 24 hour schedule, why doest that count? It seems the relevant Factor is what their natural schedule actually is, given the circumstances etc
        pcthrowaway 2y ago
        Why would anyone be happier on a 26-hour schedule if they can get an adequate amount of sleep and go to sleep close to the same time on 24-hour schedule? I can see it going the other way, where if your natural rhythm is 22 hours you can likely force yourself to stay awake to align with 24 (and likely would be much happier than free-running on a 22-hour clock). Speaking from personal experience, if I could consistently stick to a 24-hour schedule, I would. And I think most people with non-24 have the same position (and have likely tried many things before giving up, as tossing and turning for hours every night and then still not sleeping enough is pretty unpleasant). Additionally, if Bob's rhythm is 26 hours then his sleep cycle is shifting ahead by 2 hours every night regardless of when he falls asleep. If he is able to fall asleep at the same time every night, his sleep cycle presumably isn't shifting, and even if 26 hours might be more natural for him, he's able to sync his cycle to 24 hours regardless. So I don't think this would qualify them for non-24, as the circadian rhythm isn't shifting every day. On the other hand, if Bob chooses to sleep 26 hours for whatever reason, perhaps he could be said to have it then? It's just inconceivable to me that someone would actually choose that given the option. It's worth noting that the average human circadian rhythm is closer to 24.5 hours when external stimuli are removed. So it doesn't strike me as too different from Bob; people are nevertheless regulated to 24 hours by daylight and not said to be non-24, even if, like Bob, their natural state might be to sleep more.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    Yup, a kid is a driver for regularity in sleep cycles.
    - Freak_NL 2y ago
      This makes me wonder about the point he briefly touches at, but otherwise leaves out: his partner. Are there no children planned at all? Have they already raised kids and are done with this? Is he planning to break up with her? You can't do this and raise a child¹ without being, well, an asshole. He would force the mother to do all the fixed daily things, and the child to navigate your availability using your private clock. 1: After they've settled into a stable daily sleeping rhythm of course. For a baby this system might even be useful some nights (but not others).
      - binary132 2y ago
        perhaps Junior will follow in Father’s footsteps. :)
pcthrowaway 2y ago
If you are able to make relatively few commitments for a month, go to sleep when you feel tired. Sleep as much as feels good. Track it in a spreadsheet. Some people with non-24 have very regular sleep/wake cycles. I'm not as fortunate, but in the winter will tend towards 24-29 hour days, with an average just over 27 (perhaps this winter has even been a little under 27 as I've been more physically active) In the summer it's close enough to 24 hours that I can stick to a 24-hour schedule most of the time.
- bix6 2y ago
  Interesting I’ll have to track it a bit. I’ve always adjusted a bit in winter but never thought to measure / optimize it.
lloeki 2y ago
> How You need a significant period of time without any time-bound obligation (or even any obligation at all). Any need for an alarm or anything that you'd possibly materialise in a calendar needs to be removed. You need a room which is pitch black at night (e.g blocks street lights, no leds), yet still allows a tiny bit of sunlight (rationale: without cues the circadian cycle extends up to 48h, there was an experiment about that) Then, once you have that, start freewheeling, just when you feel tired go rest and when you wake up get up. It'll be a mess at first, for two reasons. First you may be unable to properly recognise the "I need to take some rest" signal: we're trained by life to largely ignore it. Second, you need to pay off any debt, sleep, physical, mind, that would play a role in altering your base cycle. Have fun, work out, meditate, go see a therapist even. In a nutshell, find your balance. Once you have recovered from everything, once all biasing sources have been removed, then sleep will converge to some rhythm, which carries some error margin, so you can only observe it statistically over time. There's your baseline. It could take months, which more often than not isn't practical to have, so from the above ideal scenario one could devise a protocol that would try to stick as close as possible to it. Source: first principles+anecdata, sample size of 1, double-non-blind protocol; a.k.a myself digging out of a hole. Protocol: 3 week sick leave for burnout x anxiety depression, coincidental breakup (so no SO), went from office to remote working, workout plan, 6 month therapy, statistically reliable sleep/health/performance tracking via watch allowing for outlier identification/retrospective deviation root cause analysis. Result: 0130-0930~30min sleep, 7h45min~5min sleep duration made of two ~4h-ish blocks, 25h~30min cycle. When bound to 24h rhythm, occasional sleepless night leading to 48h day and three aforementioned blocks of sleep (~11h-ish total). From the data it became painfully obvious that I experience delayed sleep phase disorder, took me 6 months to figure the baseline out, and 6 more to confirm, which is quite hard when you don't even know that it is a thing.
- pcthrowaway 2y ago
  > rationale: without cues the circadian cycle extends up to 48h, there was an experiment about that Do you have a link to this experiment? I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere. Studies referenced in the non-24 wikipedia page suggest natural circadian rhythms typically range from 24-25.5 hours for people not getting external cues.

pskfyi 2y ago

Do you have any recommended books or links on this topic?

pcthrowaway 2y ago
I haven't read any books on the topic and don't recall any specific articles though I'm sure I've read many. There are some good references in the wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake...), and I've been following https://reddit.com/r/N24 https://reddit.com/r/N24 for a while also.
photonthug 2y ago
I’d never suggest that people shouldn’t read books or consult experts but.. sleep is probably like diets in that you can read whatever advice you’re looking to find somewhere. Even after we accept that a dichotomy like typical vs atypical (or night owl vs morning lark; omnivore vs vegetarian) is way too simple.. the more we look the more we keep finding new “types” (like all the flavors of non-24; vegans, paleo, etc). So even reading stuff that’s trying to be rigorous may ultimately just tell you about fads and fashions that might be working for others. Natural variation in people seems to outpace or defy our ability to categorize stuff. To me this hints that there’s really no substitute for experimenting and listening to your body. The hard part is just that this does require some time and space in your life to accomplish, because if you’re going back to basics about stuff like food or sleep then inevitably it’s going to be disruptive until you figure out what works best.

euroderf 2y ago

Data point: I found mine to be between 25 and 26 hours. Probably a contributing factor to difficulty in getting to sleep "at a good hour". OTOH mild sleep deprivation has been shown to counter depression, so there's that.

zemvpferreira 2y ago
Likewise but I've found small melatonin doses (plus reducing caffeine to once per day) to really help me conform to a 24 hour day. Worth trying if you haven't.
- euroderf 2y ago
  I tried melatonin. It gave me nightmares. Weird, but it was repeatable. So, my 0,02€.
  - bemmu 2y ago
    This happens if I take too much melatonin. The dosage in US-sold melatonin is unnecessarily high. Finnish tablets are typically 1.9mg, while US ones can have 10mg in just one.
    - opan 2y ago
      Luckily some people warned about this a lot online (not to take too much, most pills are too much) and I was able to find 1mg tablets on Amazon when I wanted some.
    - mafuy 2y ago
      1mg or less seems to work best. Source: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... I take melatonin (0.2mg via a spray). It is very effective. Nightmares are a recurring problem for me and other users I know, but can be solved with low doses and a lot of discipline.
  - sensanaty 2y ago