5 ms·

It's not really surprising, but the article seems to conflate raves with nightclubs, with numerous remarks about the cost of being out at a club all night and p

It's not really surprising, but the article seems to conflate raves with nightclubs, with numerous remarks about the cost of being out at a club all night and paying for things like expensive bottle service. Raves are not clubs, and historically have never done that well in club environments. People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. Psychedelic drugs like LSD are also associated with the rave scene but are less compatible with a nightclub environment (bars, security, overgrown disco lights). People are more likely to consume psychedelics at an outdoor party or a warehouse space. In my view what has killed raves was the declining availability of cheap accessible commercial spaces, police/administrative hostility to informal economic activity, and overcommercialization, which has tended to select for the shittiest music/DJs.

prettyblocks 2y ago
Not to mention cell phones everywhere.
- mitemte 2y ago
  One thing I like about Berlin is that some clubs explicitly forbid photos. Staff place stickers on the front and back cameras when you enter. Anyone spotted taking photos is kicked out.
  - throwbadubadu 2y ago
    Definitely, don't know why not more places are like that. The majority if techno clubs does it. There is a reason more clubs are also dark etc.. not only to hide the maybe existing wasted faces, but also to completely let go and dissolve in the music, this is very necessary.
- c16 2y ago
  It really depends on the club and the culture. In big clubs and venues, it’s more a performance now and statement than it is a club (think Printworks/Afterlife visuals) so everyone is on their phones. My experience of small intimate clubs in Europe is that people tell each other off for pulling out phones, or there’s just no light in the room - so there’s nothing to photograph. People are there for a good time. If you want a good experience, go for small lesser known artists in small venues. You’ll have fewer people there to record the night.
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    Needs a Blinded by the light Defense tower, automatically shining lightrays into every camera lense visually identified.
nox101 2y ago
what is the definition of a rave at this point? Large crowds of people dancing in or outdoors to techno music is still a HUGE thing. There's video of tons of them on youtube. If often put them on while working. Is it only a rave if it's illegal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs There's also huge EDM and other types of events (so I guess not techno but the vibe seems related, at least to me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk
- brandall10 2y ago
  As someone in the culture 20-30 years ago, it was always something that was underground... not promoted in a traditional sense, and hosted in unpermitted spaces. Usually you wouldn't know until the day of the event where the location actually was. Much of the time it would be in industrial areas that were pretty deserted and dark at night, far away from any life that would complain about the noise that would go on until at lease sunrise. If outdoors it might be out in the woods, on the edge of an Indian reservation, in the desert, etc. Often there was a gritty sense of danger and some really odd characters you would meet, certainly not helped by the substances they might be on. What you linked is what I'd call outdoor parties/festivals. Maybe folks today call them raves, but these things existed back then and we certainly didn't.
  - SpicyUme 2y ago
    ~15 years ago I remember a friend convincing me to drive a bunch of us to a rave that involved meeting a guy in grocery store parking lot between certain hours and writing down the instructions he gave us. We then drove an hour on the freeway, got off and spent 30 minutes on a series of forest service roads to get to a 2(3?) stage rave in a clearing in the woods. It went at least until sunrise, we left as the sun came up.
  - nox101 2y ago
    I went to them 25 years ago as well. I get the same thing from the organized promoted ones as I got from the old ones. I didn't need it to be "underground". I just needed the people, the music, the vibe.
ryan_lane 2y ago
Using crackhouse laws to target rave promoters killed raves in the US: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 The RAVE act that followed formalized the gray area use of those earlier crackhouse laws. All of the rest of what you're saying killed raves is a result of this crackdown.
- phin313 2y ago
  Ding ding. This and a lot of the sensation news pieces that came out a few years before, across the nation, that attracted more people for the wrong reasons that prompted things like challenging the local authorities and resulted in the RAVEact
  - bcrl 2y ago
    The opioid epedemic likely contributed as well. Opioids are not exactly conducive to dancing all night. The MDMA supply in Toronto was turned off overnight when the guy that processed barrels of chemicals at one of the chemistry labs at the University of Waterloo got caught in the spring of 2000.
bcrl 2y ago
In Toronto the decline of the scene in the late '90s was accelerated significantly when the city clamped down on promotors by restricting them from renting venues on city owned property. This was after gradually requiring EMTs and increased security at events after Allen Ho died in 1999. There was a huge protest at city hall, but that had no impact on the course of things. Combined with the recession and then SARS in 2003, people effectively stopped going out to larger events, although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well. However, there are still family friendly events held at Cherry Beach in the summer with people from the scene back then going on every year.
- stefs 2y ago
  "although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well" there's always the next generation of young people. the question is: why aren't they as interested in raves than the generations before them?
  - ghaff 2y ago
    The utterly lazy and unsatisfactory answer is that generations change. You mostly don't have bowling leagues or halls for groups like the Knights of Columbus any longer either. Now you can point to various societal changes that affect all those things but it's probably rarely one single answer.
    - colinwilyb 2y ago
      In Toronto regulations were put in place required coordinating with Police, Fire, Ambulance, and submitting applications to use ANY private space for an intended "rave party". The spontaneity of gathering your friends to dance on the beach, use a private warehouse after hours, or host a house party that went past 2AM, was now risking police showing up and handing out fines. Regulation is the fastest way to kill anything unique and valuable. [EDIT: Found a report for City Council recommendations related to this. It's a dull read, but historically facinating if you were around back then. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2000/agendas/council/cc/cc000801/cms7rpt/cl001.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2000/agendas/council/cc/cc000... ]
phowat 2y ago
100% agree. The article does not seem to be written by someonene who is particularly interested in this subject. The fact that it starts talking about what is IMO the most overrated scene ever, Berlin, says a lot.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  The overrated clubs in Berlin are overrated, but there are also all the other clubs that no NY Times ever writes about. There are (still) many of them and they are good.
- throwbadubadu 2y ago
  The Berlin scene is partly very touristy, what is also good for the city (and sad to let the clubs go), but please also don't underrate it - there are still so many clubs, you just need to find your more undergroundy experience ;) As a tourist, of course, you are also part of the problem, but also well welcome. Every "hype" is not true and show quickly symptoms, and everything was always better back in time, but there is still a lot of reason for Berlin ;)
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    Alot of the good stuff moved out of berlin to eastern cities were its still affordable?
    - ahartmetz 2y ago
      Not really, they say Leipzig is the new Berlin but it's basically just a few years behind (which is positive in the context of rising rents and dying subculture) and has about three clubs.
benno781 2y ago
There was an article in the Guardian recently about a rave reunion event in the UK - I think it would agree with many of your reasons about what killed them: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/dec/10/sanctuary-club-milton-keynes-massive-hard-dance-grime https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/dec/10/sanctuary-club...
matt3210 2y ago
> hostility to informal economic activity America in a nutshell…
- vincnetas 2y ago
  aka : rave does not scale. It's personal experience, not commercial activity and usually fuelled by youth enthusiasm.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    And youth enthusiasm is on the decline.
HellDunkel 2y ago
I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves. This has been the case since the only days of chicago warehouse parties up until what is now the case in berlin. Once the clubs go away, the off location parties will disappear next.
- ashoeafoot 2y ago
  all it takes is a quarry and a sound system .
  - baq 2y ago
    Quarries have been outsourced. China killed the rave.
    - jamilton 2y ago
      An abandoned quarry is even better!
- coldtea 2y ago
  >I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves This is rewriting history. Raves was a british thing, and it was in the open, not in clubs. Chicago warehouse parties preceded raves and are important for electronic dance music history, but are not raves.
  - geden 2y ago
    I went to my first rave in 1991 in Sheffield City Ballroom. There was plenty of raving indoors and in clubs in Sheffield and Leeds in the early 90s.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      They existed, but where they "raves" or just clubs and venues playing rave music? Proper raves where the DIY open or underground fare, secretly organized, communicated with flyers or whisper-net, etc. And when the 1994 act banned them there was a lot of (justified) anger from the rave "community"! In any case, still a British thing.
secretsatan 2y ago
I think there is some overlap, there are some nightclubs that are much more orientated to the cheap scene, I know if I walk into a club with large areas dedicated to bottle service tables, I'm not going to have a fun time and the people will be much more obnoxious. But there's some excellent venues here in Switzerland, and I think many are helped with arts funding and/or run as artist collectives and non profits.
rajnathani 2y ago
So true: > People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. There is very little money for clubs to make from techno ravers, as they're not typically the ones downing alcohol; I highly doubt one can rave to music till sunrise while continually taking in alcohol at the rate at which your typical alcohol going club-goers would.
- brodo 2y ago
  That's why raves typically cost an entrance fee.
- throwbadubadu 2y ago
  I generally agree, but also disagree. The problem with drugs and people is that they usually overdo everything and dont know their limits. Who figures that out can also have their fun 8+ hours even at age, with a limited amount of alcohol(+weed) consumption at a certain constant level ;) And then there are also that amazing sober ravers who can do 8-12hrs even without any drug. Shouldn't be underestimated how much some people like the music and their trancy dance therapy. (but yeah, those only also buy water/cola/maté).
- injidup 2y ago
  Pretty much like the modern Bachata/Salsa scene in Europe. Large parties that go from 11pm to sometimes 6am in the morning. Very little alcohol consumed but you pay big to get in to cover the cost of the location and dj's. However many venues will body frisk you for water bottles in an attempt to force you to the bar to buy drinks. At least one large event has stopped that and now provides free water ( https://bachata-fest.com/ https://bachata-fest.com/ ) under the obvious realization that people are there to dance not get shit faced and that bag checking and frisking for water bottles just leads to bad community feelings.
Jommi 2y ago
Festivals killed Raves and Nightclubs
brailsafe 2y ago
As a relatively straight-edge person, I enjoyed my first and only actual rave, but I really felt like I had to convince myself I was enjoying it compared to the people that were obviously on MDMA or whatever, especially after a few hours of basically similar tempos. Ironically, they also all burned out at a certain point and it got even less engaging as they sat on the floor and I wandered around as though I didn't get the memo. I've been to more recent Hardstyle shows since then at less sketchy venues and that's been fun, but something maybe about the repetitiveness of non-progressive trance or whatever at the time was quite boring. Some part of me wonders what that music feels like after taking something, but I spend enough time around people over 30 who regularly take mdma, coke, K, (I know they're quite different) that it continues seeming like something I'd prefer not to introduce into my life; it seems like they kind of need it. Incidentally, I'm definitely the exception in almost any group, having not engaged in anything but weed+alcohol recreationally, and occasionally drop those for periods of time. People are generally surprised that I haven't tried psychedelics yet.
- benterix 2y ago
  > I'd prefer not to introduce into my life I feel the same. Also, one of my friends developed a very bad condition after that, it was quite scary and depressing. Another one just died after taking a small dose (probably had an existing condition, but still...). there is no reason to take this shit.
  - brailsafe 2y ago
    Ya, it's personal thing, it makes me a bit uncomfortable how widely used they are. If you want to take it and have a good time, great, w/e that's your risk
- nly 2y ago
  I have a friend who decided he wanted to try all the drugs. Weed, LSD, MDMA, Cocaine. He never did heroin (afaik) but tried more than I can recall. He's very well adjusted and no longer does drugs at all. He doesn't even drink. No bad trauma, no rehab. He justed wanted to try them all to say he had.

prettyblocks 2y ago

Not to mention cell phones everywhere.

mitemte 2y ago
One thing I like about Berlin is that some clubs explicitly forbid photos. Staff place stickers on the front and back cameras when you enter. Anyone spotted taking photos is kicked out.
- throwbadubadu 2y ago
  Definitely, don't know why not more places are like that. The majority if techno clubs does it. There is a reason more clubs are also dark etc.. not only to hide the maybe existing wasted faces, but also to completely let go and dissolve in the music, this is very necessary.
c16 2y ago
It really depends on the club and the culture. In big clubs and venues, it’s more a performance now and statement than it is a club (think Printworks/Afterlife visuals) so everyone is on their phones. My experience of small intimate clubs in Europe is that people tell each other off for pulling out phones, or there’s just no light in the room - so there’s nothing to photograph. People are there for a good time. If you want a good experience, go for small lesser known artists in small venues. You’ll have fewer people there to record the night.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Needs a Blinded by the light Defense tower, automatically shining lightrays into every camera lense visually identified.

nox101 2y ago

what is the definition of a rave at this point? Large crowds of people dancing in or outdoors to techno music is still a HUGE thing. There's video of tons of them on youtube. If often put them on while working. Is it only a rave if it's illegal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv33bb-C_bo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wy2WYqD2Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEacozH2uXs There's also huge EDM and other types of events (so I guess not techno but the vibe seems related, at least to me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7O-7rF0Hqk

brandall10 2y ago
As someone in the culture 20-30 years ago, it was always something that was underground... not promoted in a traditional sense, and hosted in unpermitted spaces. Usually you wouldn't know until the day of the event where the location actually was. Much of the time it would be in industrial areas that were pretty deserted and dark at night, far away from any life that would complain about the noise that would go on until at lease sunrise. If outdoors it might be out in the woods, on the edge of an Indian reservation, in the desert, etc. Often there was a gritty sense of danger and some really odd characters you would meet, certainly not helped by the substances they might be on. What you linked is what I'd call outdoor parties/festivals. Maybe folks today call them raves, but these things existed back then and we certainly didn't.
- SpicyUme 2y ago
  ~15 years ago I remember a friend convincing me to drive a bunch of us to a rave that involved meeting a guy in grocery store parking lot between certain hours and writing down the instructions he gave us. We then drove an hour on the freeway, got off and spent 30 minutes on a series of forest service roads to get to a 2(3?) stage rave in a clearing in the woods. It went at least until sunrise, we left as the sun came up.
- nox101 2y ago
  I went to them 25 years ago as well. I get the same thing from the organized promoted ones as I got from the old ones. I didn't need it to be "underground". I just needed the people, the music, the vibe.

ryan_lane 2y ago

Using crackhouse laws to target rave promoters killed raves in the US: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94397&page=1 The RAVE act that followed formalized the gray area use of those earlier crackhouse laws. All of the rest of what you're saying killed raves is a result of this crackdown.

phin313 2y ago
Ding ding. This and a lot of the sensation news pieces that came out a few years before, across the nation, that attracted more people for the wrong reasons that prompted things like challenging the local authorities and resulted in the RAVEact
- bcrl 2y ago
  The opioid epedemic likely contributed as well. Opioids are not exactly conducive to dancing all night. The MDMA supply in Toronto was turned off overnight when the guy that processed barrels of chemicals at one of the chemistry labs at the University of Waterloo got caught in the spring of 2000.

bcrl 2y ago

In Toronto the decline of the scene in the late '90s was accelerated significantly when the city clamped down on promotors by restricting them from renting venues on city owned property. This was after gradually requiring EMTs and increased security at events after Allen Ho died in 1999. There was a huge protest at city hall, but that had no impact on the course of things. Combined with the recession and then SARS in 2003, people effectively stopped going out to larger events, although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well. However, there are still family friendly events held at Cherry Beach in the summer with people from the scene back then going on every year.

stefs 2y ago
"although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well" there's always the next generation of young people. the question is: why aren't they as interested in raves than the generations before them?
- ghaff 2y ago
  The utterly lazy and unsatisfactory answer is that generations change. You mostly don't have bowling leagues or halls for groups like the Knights of Columbus any longer either. Now you can point to various societal changes that affect all those things but it's probably rarely one single answer.
  - colinwilyb 2y ago
    In Toronto regulations were put in place required coordinating with Police, Fire, Ambulance, and submitting applications to use ANY private space for an intended "rave party". The spontaneity of gathering your friends to dance on the beach, use a private warehouse after hours, or host a house party that went past 2AM, was now risking police showing up and handing out fines. Regulation is the fastest way to kill anything unique and valuable. [EDIT: Found a report for City Council recommendations related to this. It's a dull read, but historically facinating if you were around back then. https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2000/agendas/council/cc/cc000801/cms7rpt/cl001.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2000/agendas/council/cc/cc000... ]

phowat 2y ago

100% agree. The article does not seem to be written by someonene who is particularly interested in this subject. The fact that it starts talking about what is IMO the most overrated scene ever, Berlin, says a lot.

ahartmetz 2y ago
The overrated clubs in Berlin are overrated, but there are also all the other clubs that no NY Times ever writes about. There are (still) many of them and they are good.
throwbadubadu 2y ago
The Berlin scene is partly very touristy, what is also good for the city (and sad to let the clubs go), but please also don't underrate it - there are still so many clubs, you just need to find your more undergroundy experience ;) As a tourist, of course, you are also part of the problem, but also well welcome. Every "hype" is not true and show quickly symptoms, and everything was always better back in time, but there is still a lot of reason for Berlin ;)
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Alot of the good stuff moved out of berlin to eastern cities were its still affordable?
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    Not really, they say Leipzig is the new Berlin but it's basically just a few years behind (which is positive in the context of rising rents and dying subculture) and has about three clubs.

benno781 2y ago

There was an article in the Guardian recently about a rave reunion event in the UK - I think it would agree with many of your reasons about what killed them: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/dec/10/sanctuary-club-milton-keynes-massive-hard-dance-grime https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/dec/10/sanctuary-club...

matt3210 2y ago

> hostility to informal economic activity America in a nutshell…

vincnetas 2y ago
aka : rave does not scale. It's personal experience, not commercial activity and usually fuelled by youth enthusiasm.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  And youth enthusiasm is on the decline.

HellDunkel 2y ago

I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves. This has been the case since the only days of chicago warehouse parties up until what is now the case in berlin. Once the clubs go away, the off location parties will disappear next.

ashoeafoot 2y ago
all it takes is a quarry and a sound system .
- baq 2y ago
  Quarries have been outsourced. China killed the rave.
  - jamilton 2y ago
    An abandoned quarry is even better!
coldtea 2y ago
>I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves This is rewriting history. Raves was a british thing, and it was in the open, not in clubs. Chicago warehouse parties preceded raves and are important for electronic dance music history, but are not raves.
- geden 2y ago
  I went to my first rave in 1991 in Sheffield City Ballroom. There was plenty of raving indoors and in clubs in Sheffield and Leeds in the early 90s.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    They existed, but where they "raves" or just clubs and venues playing rave music? Proper raves where the DIY open or underground fare, secretly organized, communicated with flyers or whisper-net, etc. And when the 1994 act banned them there was a lot of (justified) anger from the rave "community"! In any case, still a British thing.

secretsatan 2y ago

I think there is some overlap, there are some nightclubs that are much more orientated to the cheap scene, I know if I walk into a club with large areas dedicated to bottle service tables, I'm not going to have a fun time and the people will be much more obnoxious. But there's some excellent venues here in Switzerland, and I think many are helped with arts funding and/or run as artist collectives and non profits.

rajnathani 2y ago

So true: > People who are really into staying up all night dancing to techno music aren't buying expensive alcoholic drinks, they're buying cheap water to stay hydrated. Many (though by no means all) take drugs, but generally that means one dose of a drug like MDMA at the beginning of the evening. There is very little money for clubs to make from techno ravers, as they're not typically the ones downing alcohol; I highly doubt one can rave to music till sunrise while continually taking in alcohol at the rate at which your typical alcohol going club-goers would.

brodo 2y ago
That's why raves typically cost an entrance fee.
throwbadubadu 2y ago
I generally agree, but also disagree. The problem with drugs and people is that they usually overdo everything and dont know their limits. Who figures that out can also have their fun 8+ hours even at age, with a limited amount of alcohol(+weed) consumption at a certain constant level ;) And then there are also that amazing sober ravers who can do 8-12hrs even without any drug. Shouldn't be underestimated how much some people like the music and their trancy dance therapy. (but yeah, those only also buy water/cola/maté).
injidup 2y ago
Pretty much like the modern Bachata/Salsa scene in Europe. Large parties that go from 11pm to sometimes 6am in the morning. Very little alcohol consumed but you pay big to get in to cover the cost of the location and dj's. However many venues will body frisk you for water bottles in an attempt to force you to the bar to buy drinks. At least one large event has stopped that and now provides free water ( https://bachata-fest.com/ https://bachata-fest.com/ ) under the obvious realization that people are there to dance not get shit faced and that bag checking and frisking for water bottles just leads to bad community feelings.

Jommi 2y ago

Festivals killed Raves and Nightclubs

brailsafe 2y ago

As a relatively straight-edge person, I enjoyed my first and only actual rave, but I really felt like I had to convince myself I was enjoying it compared to the people that were obviously on MDMA or whatever, especially after a few hours of basically similar tempos. Ironically, they also all burned out at a certain point and it got even less engaging as they sat on the floor and I wandered around as though I didn't get the memo. I've been to more recent Hardstyle shows since then at less sketchy venues and that's been fun, but something maybe about the repetitiveness of non-progressive trance or whatever at the time was quite boring. Some part of me wonders what that music feels like after taking something, but I spend enough time around people over 30 who regularly take mdma, coke, K, (I know they're quite different) that it continues seeming like something I'd prefer not to introduce into my life; it seems like they kind of need it. Incidentally, I'm definitely the exception in almost any group, having not engaged in anything but weed+alcohol recreationally, and occasionally drop those for periods of time. People are generally surprised that I haven't tried psychedelics yet.

benterix 2y ago
> I'd prefer not to introduce into my life I feel the same. Also, one of my friends developed a very bad condition after that, it was quite scary and depressing. Another one just died after taking a small dose (probably had an existing condition, but still...). there is no reason to take this shit.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  Ya, it's personal thing, it makes me a bit uncomfortable how widely used they are. If you want to take it and have a good time, great, w/e that's your risk
nly 2y ago
I have a friend who decided he wanted to try all the drugs. Weed, LSD, MDMA, Cocaine. He never did heroin (afaik) but tried more than I can recall. He's very well adjusted and no longer does drugs at all. He doesn't even drink. No bad trauma, no rehab. He justed wanted to try them all to say he had.