4 ms·
Slave labor (which is permitted under the 13th amendment as punishment for a crime) undercuts the wages that you would pay in the market hurting both the prison
by arcticbull 2y ago
Slave labor (which is permitted under the 13th amendment as punishment for a crime) undercuts the wages that you would pay in the market hurting both the prisoners (as they aren't paid appropriately or given appropriate medical care for injuries, etc) and the would-be non-prison firefighters.
Worse, you generally can't be a firefighter once you get out of prison as they don't hire ex-convicts. Consequently you're not even learning a useful job skill. Note that this hard-ban was relaxed in California specifically in 2020 under AB2147 (allowing prisoners who participated in firefighting programs to apply to have their records expunged in certain cases) -- but applies elsewhere in the US.
- hx8 2y agoI'm not informed on the specifics on these cases, but I generally view that (many/most) prisoners have a debt to society for breaking the social contract and serving the community by making it safer is a generally positive activity. I'm happy to adjust my opinion on this topic if provided evidence that inmate firefighters either are unsafe for the community or have worse outcomes than other inmates.
- rvnx 2y agoI find it curious that some people here consider it as slavery ? It is an optional activity if I understand right. It seems rewarding to do a training to become a firefighter and join the team, than to idle in prison. It is a volunteer role. Many people in the world become volunteers in the firefighters, a lot are unpaid. They do it for reasons beyond money (making friends, feeling useful, helping people, etc). A prisoner may get some carrot as a reward (like less served time) but at the end, they all benefit.
- arcticbull 2y ago> I'm not informed on the specifics on these cases, but I generally view that (many/most) prisoners have a debt to society for breaking the social contract and serving the community by making it safer is a generally positive activity. Yes -- but -- by undercutting the wages you would have to pay people outside, it lowers the pay of the non-prison laborers. This hurts that community. You can achieve the same result by paying them prevailing wage. This has the extra benefit of giving them some saved up money to start a new life when they get out, helping them avoid falling back into a life of crime to make ends meet.
- svnt 2y ago> You can achieve the same result by paying them prevailing wage. This has the extra benefit of giving them some saved up money to start a new life when they get out, helping them avoid falling back into a life of crime to make ends meet. I don’t see how you can do this, because you turn punishment into privilege. If the way to firefighter pay is through a jail cell you create all kind of problems around perverse incentives.
- svnt 2y agoNo one has a response, they just downvote because they don’t like the reality of the situation?
- sahila 2y agoBecause no one is actually seriously proposing to pay prisoners the same rate as real firefighters; we just shouldn't be using prisoners. Would you allow prisoners to volunteer as teachers, nurses, engineers? Why is the market for firefighters the only one that gets free volunteers from this pool? But it's not just hurting the firefighter market, lots of people just have issues with using prisoners as slaves.
- svnt 2y ago> Would you allow prisoners to volunteer as teachers, nurses, engineers? If part of their job description was the equivalent of clearing brush/cutting fire lines in emergencies, I might consider it. > Why is the market for firefighters the only one that gets free volunteers from this pool? Do you have another source of willing, not-risk-averse, physically fit and competent people that are not doing anything else, know each other already, can be there ready to work together at a moment’s notice, and won’t bail partway through to go fill an instacart order?
- rurp 2y agoYep, and just to drive home the point the official motto of the California Conservation Corps, which does a lot fire fighting and prevention in the state, is “Hard work, low pay, miserable conditions, and more.”[0] I get that the motto is somewhat tongue in cheek but still, slave labor does tend to distort markets. [0]https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/national-climate-corps-california-leading-way https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/natio...