5 ms·

> growing popularity of the traditional Latin Mass there is no such thing as a "growing popularity" of the mass in latin. because, surprise, the spells work j

by froh 2y ago

> growing popularity of the traditional Latin Mass there is no such thing as a "growing popularity" of the mass in latin. because, surprise, the spells work just fine in any language. because, surprise again, Jesus spoke Aramaic. and the educated spoke Greek. PP Francis is putting the whole misguided "Jesus sacrifice" liturgy and it's backwards thinking back to where it belongs: history books.

michaelsbradley 2y ago
Tell that to the 1000+ seating traditional Latin Mass churches around the world where families pack the pews along with hundreds of babies in the arms of parents and older siblings at Mass on Sundays and major feast days. It is true that some in leadership presently, including Pope Francis, don't care for the movement and have been hampering it in various ways in recent years, but at this point its growth is unstoppable. Even if Francis dropped an even harder ban hammer (he won't for various reasons), it would just lead to immediate explosive growth of the SSPX because affected families and clergy-religious would never go back to the Novus Ordo Missae. Anyway, we can have that discussion in another context if you wish. Mainly I wanted to point out that "Latin in the church" is alive and well and only more so in recent years. > PP Francis is putting the whole misguided "Jesus sacrifice" liturgy and it's backwards thinking back to where it belongs: history books. I'm not sure what information sources inform your thinking on this matter, but regardless it's an extremely distorted take on Catholic theology of the Eucharist. Again, that's getting far afield of the OP and my original comment, so can discuss elsewhere, but you can check the 1997 Catechism: http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V
- int_19h 2y ago
  What is the proportion of Latin Mass churches to all the rest?
  - michaelsbradley 2y ago
    Very small in relation to worldwide numbers, but with young members that on average are having large-ish numbers of children. Also, the traditional Latin Mass religious communities (FSSP, ICKSP, et al.) are attracting lots of young men and women to the priesthood and religious life, so their numbers of priestly ordinations are "way up" relative to others.
- froh 2y ago
  I prefer to check the current catechism https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM the key difference between the pre Vatican II and the current missal is that is a focus on sacrifice vs a focus of communion. St Augustine so sweetly reminds us: receive what you _are_: body of Christ and become what you have received: body of Christ does your practice make you a more loving person? or a more righteous one? do you feel those not celebrating a specific rite are less Christian? less worthy? does it matter on judgement day if you went to tridentine mass? if you had a choice? do you look down to those not doing it? that's what matters. the Jesus chips are as magic in English as they are in latin. much love ;-)
  - michaelsbradley 2y ago
    We linked to the same Catechism, just two different websites, good grief. Actually, the one you linked to, the IntraText version on the Vatican’s website, seems to be the 1992 edition, which is out of date. The edition promulgated in 1997 is the definitive-official one, and that’s the edition that happens to be hosted by scborromeo, though the Vatican’s site might eventually get updated, after all it’s only been almost 30 years since the 1997 edition was published: http://scborromeo.org/ccc/aposletr.htm http://scborromeo.org/ccc/aposletr.htm The 1997 edition is also available here: https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church > the Jesus chips are as magic in English as they are in latin. Characterizing the Eucharist as "Jesus chips" and "magic" is both offensive and sacrilegious, but hey, it's the Internet, so go figure. Finally, the teachings in JP2's 1997 Catechism and the Catechism of Trent regarding the Eucharist are harmonious, in no way in contradiction with one another. Anyone who wishes can read and compare for themselves: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015038914233&view=2up&seq=276 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015038914233&vi... Comparing the 1969+ liturgical reforms with the Tridentine Missal is another matter. This will be my last reply in this HN thread, there are more appropriate forums to discuss these matters.
    - froh 2y ago
      the vatican site link is to the most recent version (including the abolishment of the capital punishment in 2017) https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM my point was that "other matter", the liturgical reforms that overcame some narrow aspects of the "tridentine" mass of 1962 (!). apologies for the stingy phrasing for the eucharist --- I happen to sign up to transsubstantiation, indeed, albeit, as I said, in the way St Augustine phrased it so beautifully... it's not the bread, but us in combination with our community coming together around the bread and sharing it in the intention to become one --- that's where "it" happens, that's when we and the bread and the Wine and Christ and the Father become one... live long and prosper

by froh 2y ago

michaelsbradley 2y ago

Tell that to the 1000+ seating traditional Latin Mass churches around the world where families pack the pews along with hundreds of babies in the arms of parents and older siblings at Mass on Sundays and major feast days. It is true that some in leadership presently, including Pope Francis, don't care for the movement and have been hampering it in various ways in recent years, but at this point its growth is unstoppable. Even if Francis dropped an even harder ban hammer (he won't for various reasons), it would just lead to immediate explosive growth of the SSPX because affected families and clergy-religious would never go back to the Novus Ordo Missae. Anyway, we can have that discussion in another context if you wish. Mainly I wanted to point out that "Latin in the church" is alive and well and only more so in recent years. > PP Francis is putting the whole misguided "Jesus sacrifice" liturgy and it's backwards thinking back to where it belongs: history books. I'm not sure what information sources inform your thinking on this matter, but regardless it's an extremely distorted take on Catholic theology of the Eucharist. Again, that's getting far afield of the OP and my original comment, so can discuss elsewhere, but you can check the 1997 Catechism: http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm#V

int_19h 2y ago
What is the proportion of Latin Mass churches to all the rest?
- michaelsbradley 2y ago
  Very small in relation to worldwide numbers, but with young members that on average are having large-ish numbers of children. Also, the traditional Latin Mass religious communities (FSSP, ICKSP, et al.) are attracting lots of young men and women to the priesthood and religious life, so their numbers of priestly ordinations are "way up" relative to others.
froh 2y ago
I prefer to check the current catechism https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM the key difference between the pre Vatican II and the current missal is that is a focus on sacrifice vs a focus of communion. St Augustine so sweetly reminds us: receive what you _are_: body of Christ and become what you have received: body of Christ does your practice make you a more loving person? or a more righteous one? do you feel those not celebrating a specific rite are less Christian? less worthy? does it matter on judgement day if you went to tridentine mass? if you had a choice? do you look down to those not doing it? that's what matters. the Jesus chips are as magic in English as they are in latin. much love ;-)
- michaelsbradley 2y ago
  We linked to the same Catechism, just two different websites, good grief. Actually, the one you linked to, the IntraText version on the Vatican’s website, seems to be the 1992 edition, which is out of date. The edition promulgated in 1997 is the definitive-official one, and that’s the edition that happens to be hosted by scborromeo, though the Vatican’s site might eventually get updated, after all it’s only been almost 30 years since the 1997 edition was published: http://scborromeo.org/ccc/aposletr.htm http://scborromeo.org/ccc/aposletr.htm The 1997 edition is also available here: https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church https://usccb.cld.bz/Catechism-of-the-Catholic-Church > the Jesus chips are as magic in English as they are in latin. Characterizing the Eucharist as "Jesus chips" and "magic" is both offensive and sacrilegious, but hey, it's the Internet, so go figure. Finally, the teachings in JP2's 1997 Catechism and the Catechism of Trent regarding the Eucharist are harmonious, in no way in contradiction with one another. Anyone who wishes can read and compare for themselves: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015038914233&view=2up&seq=276 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015038914233&vi... Comparing the 1969+ liturgical reforms with the Tridentine Missal is another matter. This will be my last reply in this HN thread, there are more appropriate forums to discuss these matters.
  - froh 2y ago
    the vatican site link is to the most recent version (including the abolishment of the capital punishment in 2017) https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM my point was that "other matter", the liturgical reforms that overcame some narrow aspects of the "tridentine" mass of 1962 (!). apologies for the stingy phrasing for the eucharist --- I happen to sign up to transsubstantiation, indeed, albeit, as I said, in the way St Augustine phrased it so beautifully... it's not the bread, but us in combination with our community coming together around the bread and sharing it in the intention to become one --- that's where "it" happens, that's when we and the bread and the Wine and Christ and the Father become one... live long and prosper