9 ms·

Just refactor SerenityOS, take its DE and make it a Wayland compositor, stop reinventing the wheel. Ladybird realized this, why can't SerenityOS do the same?

engeljohnb 2y ago
Software is young in the grand scheme. Operating systems are even younger. We're still inventing the wheel.
ironhaven 2y ago
This is surprising close to how SerenityOS started. The first piece Andreas wrote was the desktop environment with it rendering to a SDL window
diath 2y ago
> Just refactor SerenityOS, take its DE and make it a Wayland compositor Funnily enough SerenityOS's WindowServer is actually more usable than Wayland, so that would be a downgrade.
- throwaway1194 2y ago
  > SerenityOS's WindowServer is actually more usable than Wayland I find that very difficult to believe, how exactly is it more usable? Serenity would benefit a lot sitting on top of a Linux kernel in my opinion.
  - mythz 2y ago
    Then it would be just another Linux distro of which there are 100s already. SerenityOS has a clear goal as a hobbyist from-scratch OS with a monolithic code-base where the entire source code is contained within a single Mono repo where the entire Software is built with the same programming language and tool chain and the entire OS and core Apps can be changed from a single repo without needing to rely on 3rd Party upstream packages. This is a great environment to rapidly prototype new UI features, like it was the first time I saw an OS able to open UI folders and Applications from `ls` output in a terminal. It's great that an OS with a cohesive code-base like this exists, but it's only targeted for the hobbyist developers building the OS to use and has no plans on becoming an OS for mainstream adoption.
    - throwaway1194 2y ago
      > Then it would be just another Linux distro of which there are 100s already. No, it would be a Wayland compositor, which could be made to run on Linux or the BSDs. > This is a great environment to rapidly prototype new UI features, like it was the first time I saw an OS able to open UI folders and Applications from `ls` output in a terminal. There's nothing special about this, Enlightenment did it on Linux many years before Serenity even existed. https://www.enlightenment.org/about-terminology.md https://www.enlightenment.org/about-terminology.md > but it's only targeted for the hobbyist developers building the OS to use and has no plans on becoming an OS for mainstream adoption. It's such a shame because it could be a great Wayland compositor, and the features you mention could be made to work as a desktop environment. Why spend years reinventing the wheel when others already did the hard work that they won't be able to replicate in the first place? It's their time, sure. And they can do wherever they want but it's still wasted effort, whether people admit it or not. Not even the BSDs are able to compete with Linux on driver's support, what makes people think SerenityOS could? I also hardly doubt the SerenityOS people don't have any expectations to get at least some adoption, they're wasting their time with their current strategy.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - mythz 2y ago
        > Why spend years reinventing the wheel when others already did the hard work that they won't be able to replicate in the first place? You clearly haven't spend any time learning about the SerenityOS project and don't seem to have any clue about why Andreas started SerenityOS in the first place since your suggestions completely contradict why it was created. Why are you suggesting using 3rd Party software when the entire purpose of SerenityOS is to not use any external software and build everything from scratch? The goal isn't to save time by reusing existing software, of course they know that using existing software would save time recreating it, but that was never the point. They're creating an entirely new OS from the ground up. Andreas has created 100s of hours of YouTube content showing building different parts of SerenityOS, which IMO is one of the best resources for showing how to build different parts of an OS from scratch [1]. > I also hardly doubt the SerenityOS people don't have any expectations to get at least some adoption, they're wasting their time with their current strategy. Since you don't seem to know anything about SerenityOS your doubts and thoughts of its developers are meaningless, the goals and purpose of SerenityOS have been well documented. It was never meant to be an OS for mainstream adoption, just an OS by hackers for hackers. They've built great software and a great community where everyone gets to work on whatever parts they're interested in and have fun being apart of and contributing to a shared creation of work together - that's not wasting time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  I disagree, unless you're comparing it to a barenbones implementation like Sway. I have shortly considered trying to port the Serenity GUI to Wayland, though, because I really like the visual style. I don't have the C++ knowledge to effectively navigate the project, though, so I let go of that idea pretty quickly. SerenityOS has no business running on Linux, but a fork could be pretty neat for 90s GUI lovers. IMO the Serenity UI easily beats those heavily reskinned KDE installs every time.
  - throwaway1194 2y ago
    > SerenityOS has no business running on Linux, but a fork could be pretty neat for 90s GUI lovers. Take a look at labwc, the look and feel is similar to Openbox and can be made to look retro-like. Xfce will also come with Wayland support in the next version or so I hear. I don't get the Sway comment about being barebones, it's a tiling compositor, it does what it should do.
    - jeroenhd 2y ago
      Sway does what it sets out to do, and that's not a lot. That's why I consider it rather barebones. It relies on other tools to provide UI components that are standard in most normal desktop environments.
      - throwaway1194 2y ago
        Well, sway is not a desktop environment...
Deukhoofd 2y ago
And miss out on these cool articles about people learning a bunch of stuff?
TrainedMonkey 2y ago
Because not everything is about practicality or profit.
- throwaway1194 2y ago
  > not everything is about practicality I hate to say it but if they're not thinking in practical terms, they're dead in the long run.
  - sedatk 2y ago
    Not everything is about survival either.
  - gmueckl 2y ago
    Would that matter in the end when it was fun and/or educational while it lasted?
bowsamic 2y ago
Ladybird did this because there really is a pressing social need for a free browser outside of the grips of Google. There is no really need for another free (as in freedom) OS. Serenity's existence is purely for pleasure purposes
- throwaway1194 2y ago
  > Serenity's existence is purely for pleasure purposes These projects misdirect talented individuals from impactful work. What's the point, if they ultimately collapse due to the unsustainable nature of solely pleasure-driven endeavors? This wasted effort is particularly frustrating considering that vital open-source projects, crucial for real-world applications, are struggling to survive due to critical lack of contributors. It's infuriating to witness this neglect.
  - hakfoo 2y ago
    Why build a model airplane if you can't fly it to JFK? Even as a pure hobby project, it has educational value. Being somewhat of a toy with simplifications and limits makes it understandable, but it's comprehensive and engaging enough to justify ongoing effort.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    > These projects misdirect talented individuals from impactful work. You have no evidence of that. You cannot force people to do what you consider to be impactful work. The definition of "impactful" is highly subjective. > What's the point, if they ultimately collapse due to the unsustainable nature of solely pleasure-driven endeavors? You presume it's solely about pleasure. Some people find gaining knowledge and learning to work with their own two hands pleasurable. Are their endeavors transitively unsustainable because of this? > that vital open-source projects, crucial for real-world applications, are struggling to survive due to critical lack of contributors The work to produce vital and crucial things should be paid. It's particularly frustrating to see people expect to not only demand they control the work of others but that they also do so without having to pay a single cent. > It's infuriating to witness this neglect. I finally find myself in agreement with you.

engeljohnb 2y ago

Software is young in the grand scheme. Operating systems are even younger. We're still inventing the wheel.

ironhaven 2y ago

This is surprising close to how SerenityOS started. The first piece Andreas wrote was the desktop environment with it rendering to a SDL window

diath 2y ago

> Just refactor SerenityOS, take its DE and make it a Wayland compositor Funnily enough SerenityOS's WindowServer is actually more usable than Wayland, so that would be a downgrade.

throwaway1194 2y ago
> SerenityOS's WindowServer is actually more usable than Wayland I find that very difficult to believe, how exactly is it more usable? Serenity would benefit a lot sitting on top of a Linux kernel in my opinion.
- mythz 2y ago
  Then it would be just another Linux distro of which there are 100s already. SerenityOS has a clear goal as a hobbyist from-scratch OS with a monolithic code-base where the entire source code is contained within a single Mono repo where the entire Software is built with the same programming language and tool chain and the entire OS and core Apps can be changed from a single repo without needing to rely on 3rd Party upstream packages. This is a great environment to rapidly prototype new UI features, like it was the first time I saw an OS able to open UI folders and Applications from `ls` output in a terminal. It's great that an OS with a cohesive code-base like this exists, but it's only targeted for the hobbyist developers building the OS to use and has no plans on becoming an OS for mainstream adoption.
  - throwaway1194 2y ago
    > Then it would be just another Linux distro of which there are 100s already. No, it would be a Wayland compositor, which could be made to run on Linux or the BSDs. > This is a great environment to rapidly prototype new UI features, like it was the first time I saw an OS able to open UI folders and Applications from `ls` output in a terminal. There's nothing special about this, Enlightenment did it on Linux many years before Serenity even existed. https://www.enlightenment.org/about-terminology.md https://www.enlightenment.org/about-terminology.md > but it's only targeted for the hobbyist developers building the OS to use and has no plans on becoming an OS for mainstream adoption. It's such a shame because it could be a great Wayland compositor, and the features you mention could be made to work as a desktop environment. Why spend years reinventing the wheel when others already did the hard work that they won't be able to replicate in the first place? It's their time, sure. And they can do wherever they want but it's still wasted effort, whether people admit it or not. Not even the BSDs are able to compete with Linux on driver's support, what makes people think SerenityOS could? I also hardly doubt the SerenityOS people don't have any expectations to get at least some adoption, they're wasting their time with their current strategy.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mythz 2y ago
      > Why spend years reinventing the wheel when others already did the hard work that they won't be able to replicate in the first place? You clearly haven't spend any time learning about the SerenityOS project and don't seem to have any clue about why Andreas started SerenityOS in the first place since your suggestions completely contradict why it was created. Why are you suggesting using 3rd Party software when the entire purpose of SerenityOS is to not use any external software and build everything from scratch? The goal isn't to save time by reusing existing software, of course they know that using existing software would save time recreating it, but that was never the point. They're creating an entirely new OS from the ground up. Andreas has created 100s of hours of YouTube content showing building different parts of SerenityOS, which IMO is one of the best resources for showing how to build different parts of an OS from scratch [1]. > I also hardly doubt the SerenityOS people don't have any expectations to get at least some adoption, they're wasting their time with their current strategy. Since you don't seem to know anything about SerenityOS your doubts and thoughts of its developers are meaningless, the goals and purpose of SerenityOS have been well documented. It was never meant to be an OS for mainstream adoption, just an OS by hackers for hackers. They've built great software and a great community where everyone gets to work on whatever parts they're interested in and have fun being apart of and contributing to a shared creation of work together - that's not wasting time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling https://www.youtube.com/@awesomekling
jeroenhd 2y ago
I disagree, unless you're comparing it to a barenbones implementation like Sway. I have shortly considered trying to port the Serenity GUI to Wayland, though, because I really like the visual style. I don't have the C++ knowledge to effectively navigate the project, though, so I let go of that idea pretty quickly. SerenityOS has no business running on Linux, but a fork could be pretty neat for 90s GUI lovers. IMO the Serenity UI easily beats those heavily reskinned KDE installs every time.
- throwaway1194 2y ago
  > SerenityOS has no business running on Linux, but a fork could be pretty neat for 90s GUI lovers. Take a look at labwc, the look and feel is similar to Openbox and can be made to look retro-like. Xfce will also come with Wayland support in the next version or so I hear. I don't get the Sway comment about being barebones, it's a tiling compositor, it does what it should do.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    Sway does what it sets out to do, and that's not a lot. That's why I consider it rather barebones. It relies on other tools to provide UI components that are standard in most normal desktop environments.
    - throwaway1194 2y ago
      Well, sway is not a desktop environment...

Deukhoofd 2y ago

And miss out on these cool articles about people learning a bunch of stuff?

TrainedMonkey 2y ago

Because not everything is about practicality or profit.

throwaway1194 2y ago
> not everything is about practicality I hate to say it but if they're not thinking in practical terms, they're dead in the long run.
- sedatk 2y ago
  Not everything is about survival either.
- gmueckl 2y ago
  Would that matter in the end when it was fun and/or educational while it lasted?

bowsamic 2y ago

Ladybird did this because there really is a pressing social need for a free browser outside of the grips of Google. There is no really need for another free (as in freedom) OS. Serenity's existence is purely for pleasure purposes

throwaway1194 2y ago
> Serenity's existence is purely for pleasure purposes These projects misdirect talented individuals from impactful work. What's the point, if they ultimately collapse due to the unsustainable nature of solely pleasure-driven endeavors? This wasted effort is particularly frustrating considering that vital open-source projects, crucial for real-world applications, are struggling to survive due to critical lack of contributors. It's infuriating to witness this neglect.
- hakfoo 2y ago
  Why build a model airplane if you can't fly it to JFK? Even as a pure hobby project, it has educational value. Being somewhat of a toy with simplifications and limits makes it understandable, but it's comprehensive and engaging enough to justify ongoing effort.
- timewizard 2y ago
  > These projects misdirect talented individuals from impactful work. You have no evidence of that. You cannot force people to do what you consider to be impactful work. The definition of "impactful" is highly subjective. > What's the point, if they ultimately collapse due to the unsustainable nature of solely pleasure-driven endeavors? You presume it's solely about pleasure. Some people find gaining knowledge and learning to work with their own two hands pleasurable. Are their endeavors transitively unsustainable because of this? > that vital open-source projects, crucial for real-world applications, are struggling to survive due to critical lack of contributors The work to produce vital and crucial things should be paid. It's particularly frustrating to see people expect to not only demand they control the work of others but that they also do so without having to pay a single cent. > It's infuriating to witness this neglect. I finally find myself in agreement with you.