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Just the existence of steam deck is the transition to a native approach, they put pressure on devs and game engines to support, but proton is a weird middle lay

by Vilian 2y ago

Just the existence of steam deck is the transition to a native approach, they put pressure on devs and game engines to support, but proton is a weird middle layer, it would be easier to support Linux and vulkan natively and that's growing

pjmlp 2y ago
There is zero pressure on the devs, as it is currently, they target Windows and Valve does the work if they care to make it work, just like IBM tried with OS/2 and its "Runs Windows better than Windows" campaign. Also good luck supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features not available on Vulkan, or what Microsoft and NVidia just announced at CES, AI Shaders.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  > Also good luck supporting If Nvidia and game developers care about supporting Linux they’ll try to figure something out. If they don’t they won’t. But surely the cost required to do so is lower when targeting Wine/Proton than native Linux? If they are unwilling to do that when the cost is relatively low (or at least e.g. making these new features toggle-able/optional) they certainly wouldn’t even provide a native Linux if Proton wasn’t a thing.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Playstation is based of FreeBSD and Android NDK has OpenGL ES, Vulkan, OpenSL ES, OpenMAX. Porting is relatively easy for those studios, they don't because that development costs of having a Linux build and QA isn't worth it. With Valve pushing WINE/Proton is even better, they don't need to care at all that Linux exists, Valve will do the work for free for them. Which as IBM discovered, isn't really the future proofing way to build an ecosystem with someone's else OS.
    - wqaatwt 2y ago
      > isn't worth it. Exactly. If Valve went the native route why would that have changed? > Which as IBM discovered You keep repeating that in every comment but I don’t quite understand how is this some conclusive argument. Especially when you don’t elaborate on what specifically do you think could happen.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        > If Valve went the native route why would that have changed? We would have an ecosystem of native GNU/Linux games, and Microsoft could do whatever they felt like withouth any side effects. > You keep repeating that in every comment but I don’t quite understand how is this some conclusive argument. Especially when you don’t elaborate on what specifically do you think could happen. It will happen the same it did to DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PCs, and did to anyone else that built kigdoms in other people castles, the rest you can discover yourself. Another example, even though Android is heavily dependent on Java ecosystem, and Google has won the lawsuit, they have started rewriting even the core components in Kotlin, because alongside JetBrains, they control the narrative of what goes on their kingdom. Likewise Apple's approach with Game Porting Toolkit, is to help rewrite DirectX into Metal, not to run them unmodified, again control the narrative.
        wqaatwt 2y ago
        > We would have an ecosystem of native GNU/Linux games Or we wouldn’t, perhaps a small fraction would be available on Linux severely limiting the appeal of devices running SteamOS etc. which would just give the entire handheld market to MS without them even having to do anything. Of course it possibly wouldn’t exist in the first place because Valve would have had much less incentives to develop the Deck if the market for it would have been much smaller. > Likewise Apple's approach And nobody cares about it or gaming on Mac. IMHO despite all of Apple’s success gaming on Mac is in a worse state than it was back in the early 2000s. My entire point is that however flawed Wine/Proton approach it is better than wasting money on a platform nobody cares about or develops for. I assume Valve could start paying developers to port their games to Linux or something but I can’t really think of much else.. > they have started rewriting even the core components in Kotlin Exactly. Valve can start doing the same when they gain enough market share to justify this. If Linux gains at least 10-15% of the PC gaming market game developers won’t be able to afford to ignore it anymore. Anyway that’s a relatively nice problem to have compared to the alternative.

by Vilian 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago

There is zero pressure on the devs, as it is currently, they target Windows and Valve does the work if they care to make it work, just like IBM tried with OS/2 and its "Runs Windows better than Windows" campaign. Also good luck supporting DirectX 12 Ultimate features not available on Vulkan, or what Microsoft and NVidia just announced at CES, AI Shaders.

wqaatwt 2y ago
> Also good luck supporting If Nvidia and game developers care about supporting Linux they’ll try to figure something out. If they don’t they won’t. But surely the cost required to do so is lower when targeting Wine/Proton than native Linux? If they are unwilling to do that when the cost is relatively low (or at least e.g. making these new features toggle-able/optional) they certainly wouldn’t even provide a native Linux if Proton wasn’t a thing.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Playstation is based of FreeBSD and Android NDK has OpenGL ES, Vulkan, OpenSL ES, OpenMAX. Porting is relatively easy for those studios, they don't because that development costs of having a Linux build and QA isn't worth it. With Valve pushing WINE/Proton is even better, they don't need to care at all that Linux exists, Valve will do the work for free for them. Which as IBM discovered, isn't really the future proofing way to build an ecosystem with someone's else OS.
  - wqaatwt 2y ago
    > isn't worth it. Exactly. If Valve went the native route why would that have changed? > Which as IBM discovered You keep repeating that in every comment but I don’t quite understand how is this some conclusive argument. Especially when you don’t elaborate on what specifically do you think could happen.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      > If Valve went the native route why would that have changed? We would have an ecosystem of native GNU/Linux games, and Microsoft could do whatever they felt like withouth any side effects. > You keep repeating that in every comment but I don’t quite understand how is this some conclusive argument. Especially when you don’t elaborate on what specifically do you think could happen. It will happen the same it did to DR-DOS, OS/2 and EEE PCs, and did to anyone else that built kigdoms in other people castles, the rest you can discover yourself. Another example, even though Android is heavily dependent on Java ecosystem, and Google has won the lawsuit, they have started rewriting even the core components in Kotlin, because alongside JetBrains, they control the narrative of what goes on their kingdom. Likewise Apple's approach with Game Porting Toolkit, is to help rewrite DirectX into Metal, not to run them unmodified, again control the narrative.
      - wqaatwt 2y ago
        > We would have an ecosystem of native GNU/Linux games Or we wouldn’t, perhaps a small fraction would be available on Linux severely limiting the appeal of devices running SteamOS etc. which would just give the entire handheld market to MS without them even having to do anything. Of course it possibly wouldn’t exist in the first place because Valve would have had much less incentives to develop the Deck if the market for it would have been much smaller. > Likewise Apple's approach And nobody cares about it or gaming on Mac. IMHO despite all of Apple’s success gaming on Mac is in a worse state than it was back in the early 2000s. My entire point is that however flawed Wine/Proton approach it is better than wasting money on a platform nobody cares about or develops for. I assume Valve could start paying developers to port their games to Linux or something but I can’t really think of much else.. > they have started rewriting even the core components in Kotlin Exactly. Valve can start doing the same when they gain enough market share to justify this. If Linux gains at least 10-15% of the PC gaming market game developers won’t be able to afford to ignore it anymore. Anyway that’s a relatively nice problem to have compared to the alternative.