3 ms·

So... don't play them? Your reasons for not accepting kernel anti-cheat are completely valid, but so are other users' desires to not play games with cheaters.

matheusmoreira 2y ago
I already avoid multiplayer games. It's very rare for me to make an exception. I came here to warn others about these concerns and to cite virtualization with VFIO as a viable solution. I think people should understand what sort of nonsense they're bringing into their computers when they install these games. That's what my original post was about. I didn't mean to start another one of these discussions. We shouldn't have to justify ourselves. They're the ones barging in and usurping control of our computers because of "cheating" or whatever. You install some video game and next thing you know you've got some malware exfiltrating private information, taking screenshots, scanning your RAM and disks, making an issue of your developer tools. That's unacceptable behavior, the reason for it is irrelevant.
- wqaatwt 2y ago
  > ones barging in Well.. no. They are for better or for worse explicitly invited.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    The games themselves? Yeah. But nobody "explicitly invited" in a bunch of invasive anticheat nonsense. That stuff is a nuisance at best, just yet another annoying thing you have to install before you can enjoy the thing you actually paid money for.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      Well, no. Anti-cheat exists to keep cheaters from ruining the game. If I paid to enjoy a multiplayer game, and cheaters keep me from enjoying it, then anti-cheat is a requirement to enjoying the game I paid for. It's fine if you don't think it's worth the trade-off, but it does serve a real purpose to make gaming better for players.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        They don't prevent cheating, they just make it harder. Cheat developers are still gonna bypass it, after all it is their business. And even if they did prevent cheating, it wouldn't be justifiable because the software is so invasive it can be classified as malware. It's just like DRM. Like copying, cheating simply cannot be prevented if we are in control of the machine. This technological arms race can only end in one of two ways. Either the corporations manage to own our computers or they lose. Neither result is particularly great but I know which one I'm willing to accept.
        w0m 2y ago
        > They don't prevent cheating, they just make it harder. TBF; it's net the same thing. People just need it to be hard enough that it (generally) doesn't ruin your game. You're making the same logical argument people have made against wearing (and then mandating) seat belts, and in more recent times vaccines. It's a sad slope that's led to me being told over Christmas dinner that murder being illegal is stupid because people still kill. He was serious. Boggles the mind.
        BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Seat belts and even vaccines are much more restricted in the kinds of side effects they can cause : https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
        matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Seat belts and vaccines are life saving items. They are approximately a trillion times more important than video games are and ever will be. They do not even belong in the same sentence. Even those important life saving items have contraindications. They are well studied. We know their benefits. We know their risks. We know how to balance the two. Professionals do it every day. Most people voluntarily choose to use these items after the facts are explained. Forgoing their use doesn't stop your life either. We know virtually nothing about anticheat systems. Their benefits, if any, are likely exaggerated to increase profits. Their costs and risks are "explained" in some annoying legalese document that pretty much nobody reads. You're forced to accept this nonsense. You can't play the game otherwise, might as well click next. Their function is to take over your computer in order to control and limit what you can do with it. That's an affront to the user. Accepting this costs users part of their dignity. We can only hope that they will have lots of fun with their game afterwards. Otherwise their sacrifice will have been for nothing.

matheusmoreira 2y ago

I already avoid multiplayer games. It's very rare for me to make an exception. I came here to warn others about these concerns and to cite virtualization with VFIO as a viable solution. I think people should understand what sort of nonsense they're bringing into their computers when they install these games. That's what my original post was about. I didn't mean to start another one of these discussions. We shouldn't have to justify ourselves. They're the ones barging in and usurping control of our computers because of "cheating" or whatever. You install some video game and next thing you know you've got some malware exfiltrating private information, taking screenshots, scanning your RAM and disks, making an issue of your developer tools. That's unacceptable behavior, the reason for it is irrelevant.

wqaatwt 2y ago
> ones barging in Well.. no. They are for better or for worse explicitly invited.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  The games themselves? Yeah. But nobody "explicitly invited" in a bunch of invasive anticheat nonsense. That stuff is a nuisance at best, just yet another annoying thing you have to install before you can enjoy the thing you actually paid money for.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    Well, no. Anti-cheat exists to keep cheaters from ruining the game. If I paid to enjoy a multiplayer game, and cheaters keep me from enjoying it, then anti-cheat is a requirement to enjoying the game I paid for. It's fine if you don't think it's worth the trade-off, but it does serve a real purpose to make gaming better for players.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      They don't prevent cheating, they just make it harder. Cheat developers are still gonna bypass it, after all it is their business. And even if they did prevent cheating, it wouldn't be justifiable because the software is so invasive it can be classified as malware. It's just like DRM. Like copying, cheating simply cannot be prevented if we are in control of the machine. This technological arms race can only end in one of two ways. Either the corporations manage to own our computers or they lose. Neither result is particularly great but I know which one I'm willing to accept.
      - w0m 2y ago
        > They don't prevent cheating, they just make it harder. TBF; it's net the same thing. People just need it to be hard enough that it (generally) doesn't ruin your game. You're making the same logical argument people have made against wearing (and then mandating) seat belts, and in more recent times vaccines. It's a sad slope that's led to me being told over Christmas dinner that murder being illegal is stupid because people still kill. He was serious. Boggles the mind.
        BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Seat belts and even vaccines are much more restricted in the kinds of side effects they can cause : https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
        matheusmoreira 2y ago
        Seat belts and vaccines are life saving items. They are approximately a trillion times more important than video games are and ever will be. They do not even belong in the same sentence. Even those important life saving items have contraindications. They are well studied. We know their benefits. We know their risks. We know how to balance the two. Professionals do it every day. Most people voluntarily choose to use these items after the facts are explained. Forgoing their use doesn't stop your life either. We know virtually nothing about anticheat systems. Their benefits, if any, are likely exaggerated to increase profits. Their costs and risks are "explained" in some annoying legalese document that pretty much nobody reads. You're forced to accept this nonsense. You can't play the game otherwise, might as well click next. Their function is to take over your computer in order to control and limit what you can do with it. That's an affront to the user. Accepting this costs users part of their dignity. We can only hope that they will have lots of fun with their game afterwards. Otherwise their sacrifice will have been for nothing.