3 ms·

Programmers are much more likely than the general population to have hyper-mobility Boy, that one comes with a whole lot of [citation needed].

solumunus 2y ago
I strongly doubt. Why would this be the case?
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  Do you mean why would it be the case that a strong claim needs citation? Because it's a strong claim with no evidence (they provided some in another comment, sample size of 5...). If you mean the claim itself, the person you responded to did not make it.
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    The sample is biased and intentionally so, the prior probabilities are pulled from general population statistics. Consider the likelihood of an event that should only occur 1/10K times happening 5 times in a row due to random chance, it is incredibly small.
volkl48 2y ago
Not really an expert in the topic, and so I can't comment much on the mechanisms why, but AFAIK there's a decent body of evidence that hypermobility is significantly more common in the ADHD + Autism populations than the general public....and I don't think there's much debate that those populations are more likely to be programmers than the general public. Haven't reviewed in depth, but here's an example to support that claim that looks reasonably credible from a quick review - for some types of hypermobility at least, 5x more likely for Adult ADHD, we're not necessarily talking some kind of small/statistical noise level difference: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34560594/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34560594/
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9rx 2y ago
Why is citation needed? Elaboration may be warranted, but if you do not have the trust in the parent to provide that elaboration under his own creation, why engage with him at all? To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual, if not anti-social. If you would rather speak to that someone else who you deem a suitable authority, why not speak to that other person instead? What do you hope to gain from using the parent as a pointless middleman? Especially when you consider that middleman untrustworthy, thus making any citations that may be provided unreliable anyway. A strange endeavour.
- kazinator 2y ago
  > To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual True, but extraordinary claims do call for some reference. Asking for references is doesn't ipso facto show an unwillingness to speak. The one making the claim can be reasonably expected to have more ready access to the sources of information than the one newly surprised by the claim, having already done some of the homework. (Perhaps extensively!)
- cipheredStones 2y ago
  Did you just arrive from Mars to judge our discourse norms? It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't, and be able to point to how they know it - or they might not, and them offering weak or non-existent evidence would show that.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to. Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from. HN is well known for attracting experts in their field. It could have very well been that the parent commenter is the only person who knows anything about the subject. There may not be anyone else. Even if there was, to dismiss his knowledge as the hypothetical leading expert to hear from some other random nobody doesn't make sense. But, to give the benefit of the doubt, if we assume there is a greater subject matter expert who can give you better words than the parent to describe the knowledge you seek: What purpose does the middleman serve? Why not talk directly with the expert? You are going to get a lot more out of it. The middleman, if not a valuable party to the subject, isn't going to relay what is most useful if for no other reason than because he doesn't know what is useful. A citation remains pointless. > You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't Of course. Which, again, questions why you would want to defer to a third-party? If you have good reason to believe someone knows something you don't, why wouldn't you want to hear it from them directly in their own words? As I said before, in this case elaboration is what would be valuable. A citation is not. A citation is completely useless here. While citations do have a place, asking for a citation in the middle of a conversation is a fallacious device.
Mindstormy 2y ago
I know it really doesn't count for much but I suffer from hyper-mobility and have ADHD as well. So hey we have an n of one so far.
- deleted 2y ago
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sydbarrett74 2y ago
Autism and hypermobility (e.g., Ehlers-Danlos) are highly correlated. I have both, with ADHD thrown in.

solumunus 2y ago

I strongly doubt. Why would this be the case?

Jtsummers 2y ago
Do you mean why would it be the case that a strong claim needs citation? Because it's a strong claim with no evidence (they provided some in another comment, sample size of 5...). If you mean the claim itself, the person you responded to did not make it.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  The sample is biased and intentionally so, the prior probabilities are pulled from general population statistics. Consider the likelihood of an event that should only occur 1/10K times happening 5 times in a row due to random chance, it is incredibly small.

volkl48 2y ago

Not really an expert in the topic, and so I can't comment much on the mechanisms why, but AFAIK there's a decent body of evidence that hypermobility is significantly more common in the ADHD + Autism populations than the general public....and I don't think there's much debate that those populations are more likely to be programmers than the general public. Haven't reviewed in depth, but here's an example to support that claim that looks reasonably credible from a quick review - for some types of hypermobility at least, 5x more likely for Adult ADHD, we're not necessarily talking some kind of small/statistical noise level difference: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34560594/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34560594/

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9rx 2y ago

Why is citation needed? Elaboration may be warranted, but if you do not have the trust in the parent to provide that elaboration under his own creation, why engage with him at all? To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual, if not anti-social. If you would rather speak to that someone else who you deem a suitable authority, why not speak to that other person instead? What do you hope to gain from using the parent as a pointless middleman? Especially when you consider that middleman untrustworthy, thus making any citations that may be provided unreliable anyway. A strange endeavour.

kazinator 2y ago
> To only be willing to speak to him if he relays quotes from someone else is quite unusual True, but extraordinary claims do call for some reference. Asking for references is doesn't ipso facto show an unwillingness to speak. The one making the claim can be reasonably expected to have more ready access to the sources of information than the one newly surprised by the claim, having already done some of the homework. (Perhaps extensively!)
cipheredStones 2y ago
Did you just arrive from Mars to judge our discourse norms? It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't, and be able to point to how they know it - or they might not, and them offering weak or non-existent evidence would show that.
- 9rx 2y ago
  > It's completely typical to expect someone who makes a surprising factual claim to back it up with evidence. A citation does not necessarily provide evidence, it only guarantees the words of a third-party. A third-party can spout complete nonsense as well as anyone else. The request ultimately serves to appeal to a flawed assumption that a third-party's words are more valuable than the words of who you are speaking to. Which also incorrectly assumes there is someone else's words to even draw from. HN is well known for attracting experts in their field. It could have very well been that the parent commenter is the only person who knows anything about the subject. There may not be anyone else. Even if there was, to dismiss his knowledge as the hypothetical leading expert to hear from some other random nobody doesn't make sense. But, to give the benefit of the doubt, if we assume there is a greater subject matter expert who can give you better words than the parent to describe the knowledge you seek: What purpose does the middleman serve? Why not talk directly with the expert? You are going to get a lot more out of it. The middleman, if not a valuable party to the subject, isn't going to relay what is most useful if for no other reason than because he doesn't know what is useful. A citation remains pointless. > You're talking to them because you think they might know something you don't Of course. Which, again, questions why you would want to defer to a third-party? If you have good reason to believe someone knows something you don't, why wouldn't you want to hear it from them directly in their own words? As I said before, in this case elaboration is what would be valuable. A citation is not. A citation is completely useless here. While citations do have a place, asking for a citation in the middle of a conversation is a fallacious device.

Mindstormy 2y ago

I know it really doesn't count for much but I suffer from hyper-mobility and have ADHD as well. So hey we have an n of one so far.

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sydbarrett74 2y ago

Autism and hypermobility (e.g., Ehlers-Danlos) are highly correlated. I have both, with ADHD thrown in.