4 ms·

What if SteamOS included kernel-level anti-cheat? Seems like an elegant solution compared to the current approach of running invasive third-party anti-cheat sof

What if SteamOS included kernel-level anti-cheat? Seems like an elegant solution compared to the current approach of running invasive third-party anti-cheat software.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago
How would that work? Valve implements a bunch of kernel modules for each of the different KAC libraries an arbitrary game might use? Both Valve and MS have been making moves to steer game publishers away from KAC. I think the problem will solve itself when the platforms just say, "you can't do that anymore".
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > Both Valve and MS have been making moves to steer game publishers away from KAC. Can you elaborate on this? What sort of moves have they been making? > I think the problem will solve itself when the platforms just say, "you can't do that anymore". I hope you're right!
  - ryao 2y ago
    Valve has a long history of standing against kernel annticheat. It is a pain to dig up old statements against it, so the best evidence of that is Valve’s own anticheat VAC avoids touching the kernel. They even recently began to require disclosure of the use of kernel level anticheat: https://www.pcgamer.com/games/steam-now-requires-developers-to-tell-people-when-their-games-have-kernel-mode-anticheat/ https://www.pcgamer.com/games/steam-now-requires-developers-... They recently voiced their opposition to kernel level anticheat as some thing that “ might present problematic trade-offs for the end-user in the longer term”: https://automaton-media.com/en/interviews/the-steam-deck-has-seen-widespread-success-but-its-not-stopping-there-we-ask-valve-about-the-steam-decks-challenges-and-future-goals/ https://automaton-media.com/en/interviews/the-steam-deck-has... Kernel anticheat is a major security issue from the perspective of the operating system, as it is a kernel level rootkit. An offline analogue would be giving a corporation the keys to your home and having them regularly come and install new cameras and microphones to see what you are doing. They might say “it is only active when you are playing a game”, but there is no technical hurdle blocking them from watching 24x7 and some of them don’t even bother to pretend it is only when playing a game. Then there is the issue of the wiring being faulty such that it occasionally sets your house on fire (search for BSOD complaints involving anticheat kernel drivers and you will find many). As for Microsoft, I think that is a misunderstanding that came from this: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-paves-the-way-for-Linux-gaming-success-with-plan-that-would-kill-kernel-level-anti-cheat.888345.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-paves-the-way-for-Li... Here is what someone who claims to develop kernel anticheat had to say about it: https://blog.freudenjmp.com/posts/microsoft-will-not-kill-kernel-level-anti-cheats/ https://blog.freudenjmp.com/posts/microsoft-will-not-kill-ke... Unlike Apple and the Linux community, Microsoft does not care about end user security to take a stance against kernel anticheat. All of their security initiatives are security theater.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      Thank you!
out_of_protocol 2y ago
SteamOS does provide support for common anti cheats (don't know details though), made in collaboration between anti cheat maker and valve, but many games decide to specifically opt out of this support

What if SteamOS included kernel-level anti-cheat? Seems like an elegant solution compared to the current approach of running invasive third-party anti-cheat software.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago

How would that work? Valve implements a bunch of kernel modules for each of the different KAC libraries an arbitrary game might use? Both Valve and MS have been making moves to steer game publishers away from KAC. I think the problem will solve itself when the platforms just say, "you can't do that anymore".

matheusmoreira 2y ago
> Both Valve and MS have been making moves to steer game publishers away from KAC. Can you elaborate on this? What sort of moves have they been making? > I think the problem will solve itself when the platforms just say, "you can't do that anymore". I hope you're right!
- ryao 2y ago
  Valve has a long history of standing against kernel annticheat. It is a pain to dig up old statements against it, so the best evidence of that is Valve’s own anticheat VAC avoids touching the kernel. They even recently began to require disclosure of the use of kernel level anticheat: https://www.pcgamer.com/games/steam-now-requires-developers-to-tell-people-when-their-games-have-kernel-mode-anticheat/ https://www.pcgamer.com/games/steam-now-requires-developers-... They recently voiced their opposition to kernel level anticheat as some thing that “ might present problematic trade-offs for the end-user in the longer term”: https://automaton-media.com/en/interviews/the-steam-deck-has-seen-widespread-success-but-its-not-stopping-there-we-ask-valve-about-the-steam-decks-challenges-and-future-goals/ https://automaton-media.com/en/interviews/the-steam-deck-has... Kernel anticheat is a major security issue from the perspective of the operating system, as it is a kernel level rootkit. An offline analogue would be giving a corporation the keys to your home and having them regularly come and install new cameras and microphones to see what you are doing. They might say “it is only active when you are playing a game”, but there is no technical hurdle blocking them from watching 24x7 and some of them don’t even bother to pretend it is only when playing a game. Then there is the issue of the wiring being faulty such that it occasionally sets your house on fire (search for BSOD complaints involving anticheat kernel drivers and you will find many). As for Microsoft, I think that is a misunderstanding that came from this: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-paves-the-way-for-Linux-gaming-success-with-plan-that-would-kill-kernel-level-anti-cheat.888345.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-paves-the-way-for-Li... Here is what someone who claims to develop kernel anticheat had to say about it: https://blog.freudenjmp.com/posts/microsoft-will-not-kill-kernel-level-anti-cheats/ https://blog.freudenjmp.com/posts/microsoft-will-not-kill-ke... Unlike Apple and the Linux community, Microsoft does not care about end user security to take a stance against kernel anticheat. All of their security initiatives are security theater.
  - matheusmoreira 2y ago
    Thank you!

out_of_protocol 2y ago

SteamOS does provide support for common anti cheats (don't know details though), made in collaboration between anti cheat maker and valve, but many games decide to specifically opt out of this support