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Germany is deindustrializing in many ways thanks to a lack of reasonably priced fossil fuels, with many facilities moving to the US. This is the current reality

Germany is deindustrializing in many ways thanks to a lack of reasonably priced fossil fuels, with many facilities moving to the US. This is the current reality that you might want to check in on.

jqpabc123 2y ago
Texas is overflowing with "reasonably priced fossil fuels". Yet even in oil soaked Texas, renewables account for most new capacity being added to their electrical grid. Why? It's cheaper. Simple economics. This is the current reality that you might want to check in on. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424
- marcusverus 2y ago
  Investment in fossil fuels is unlikely when one of the two parties vows to destroy the industry. Preytending that renewables are winning based purely on economics is disingenuous. If it were true, things like this would be unnecessary: https://apnews.com/united-states-presidential-election-9dfb1e4c381043bab6fd0fa6dece3974 https://apnews.com/united-states-presidential-election-9dfb1...
  - jqpabc123 2y ago
    Investment in fossil fuels is unlikely when one of the two parties vows to destroy the industry. So even when the right has control of a large oil soaked state like Texas for decades, it's still all the left's fault? Distort reality much? The end of fossil fuels is inevitable. The supply is limited. "Drill baby drill" will only reach the end faster and cause more environmental damage for your kids to deal with.
    - marcusverus 2y ago
      If you feel the need to be a cunt, please go back to reddit.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > even when the right has control of a large oil soaked state like Texas for decades, it's still all the left's fault? This is the line Texan anti-renewable lobbyists are coming out with [1]. [1] https://www.theenergyalliance.com/research/the-end-of-texas-energy-only-electricity-market-emwzw-whh6g-t6dhn https://www.theenergyalliance.com/research/the-end-of-texas-...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Yet even in oil soaked Texas, renewables account for most new capacity being added to their electrical grid. Why? It's cheaper. Simple economics Texas is still building gas generators [1][2]. Renewables are cheaper, but on the margin. Their production remains low, and despite massive growth, won't going to rival whole-grid growth for at least a decade. (Growth + replacement takes us into the 2040s.) That means we need other power sources for decades to come. America went with gas, which makes sense–we have lots of it. China with coal for the same reason. (Europe, also gas, which doesn’t make sense, but they don’t want to do coal or nuclear and don't seem to be deeply thinking about this.) In the long run we’ll probably be all solar with marginal wind, hydro and experimental sources. That will not happen in our lifetimes. Texas and Germany are prime examples of why simplifying our grid’s future to a single source is not only economically infeasible but also politically self defeating. [1] https://www.power-eng.com/gas/calpine-affirms-plan-to-build-more-natural-gas-plants-in-texas/ https://www.power-eng.com/gas/calpine-affirms-plan-to-build-... [2] https://www.powermag.com/new-gas-fired-power-plants-proposed-in-southeast-texas/ https://www.powermag.com/new-gas-fired-power-plants-proposed...
- mk89 2y ago
  Yeah but to modernize a company to switch from oil to electricity, if possible at all, requires significant investments. In Germany this has been a major problem for many companies that invested to be greener and the costs were huge. It doesn't matter that 1kwh costs 10 cents less when you need to invest 100 millions to change your infrastructure.
Arnt 2y ago
Do you have done examples of that? I ask because I live in a German city where several large multinationals have their headquarters, and I haven't heard about this happening to any of those companies.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mk89 2y ago
  I think by now there plenty of such examples: - https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/konjunktur/insolvenzen-baugewerbe-handel-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/konjunktur/insolvenzen-... - https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-zinsen-und-energiekosten-zahl-der-firmenpleiten-in-deutschland-steigt-deutlich-10913419.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-zinsen-und-energ... - https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-energiekosten-lieferketten-probleme-drohende-handelskonflikte-zahl-der-firmenpleiten-in-deutschland-steigt-weiter-zweistellig-12900745.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-energiekosten-li... Not sure if VW, Bosch, Thyssenkrupp count, but they have been in the news for a year now...
  - Arnt 2y ago
    GP mentioned "many facilities moving to the US", none of those three even mention the US.
    - mk89 2y ago
      Indeed, but it covers the "deindustrialising" issue. Many facilities moving to US.... - https://www.dw.com/en/is-german-industry-migrating-to-the-us/a-65031130 https://www.dw.com/en/is-german-industry-migrating-to-the-us... - https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f... - https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/ https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouri... That's true, they didn't shut down the factories yet, they are just firing thousands of people and opening up / investing in the US :)
V__ 2y ago
Germany is in crisis because for the last two decades, it hasn't been investing in infrastructure, digitalization, education, or anything for that matter. Cheap Russian gas just delayed the chickens coming home to roost.
- mk89 2y ago
  And I guess bringing renewables to 62% solves that problem? Honestly I find the goal of 100% renewables awesome. But take it easy, with Merkel we reached a very high percentage in a steady way - why not to proceed like that instead of getting crazy.... https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/klima-energie/erneuerbare-energien/erneuerbare-energien-in-zahlen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/klima-energie/erneuerb...
  - Blemoloko 2y ago
    [dead]
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    There is nothing 'awesome' about 100% renewables. Renewables by itself has no value. What has value is no emissions that kill people, and no CO2. That's awesome. Renewables are at best an implementation detail.
    - mk89 2y ago
      > What has value is no emissions that kill people, and no CO2 Neither of them can be reached with coal/gas/other fossil fuels. In addition, having 100% renewables means that you have an entire society ready for it - from infra to consumers. So, no, that's for me in no way an implementation detail like "I am just swapping A with B" otherwise I am pretty damn sure we could stop everything we're doing and mount solar panels everywhere to reach 100% renewables. In principle I understand what you were trying to say, but I don't agree on the premise that they are just an implementation detail.
      - panick21_ 2y ago
Blemoloko 2y ago
[dead]

Germany is deindustrializing in many ways thanks to a lack of reasonably priced fossil fuels, with many facilities moving to the US. This is the current reality that you might want to check in on.

jqpabc123 2y ago

Texas is overflowing with "reasonably priced fossil fuels". Yet even in oil soaked Texas, renewables account for most new capacity being added to their electrical grid. Why? It's cheaper. Simple economics. This is the current reality that you might want to check in on. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61424

marcusverus 2y ago
Investment in fossil fuels is unlikely when one of the two parties vows to destroy the industry. Preytending that renewables are winning based purely on economics is disingenuous. If it were true, things like this would be unnecessary: https://apnews.com/united-states-presidential-election-9dfb1e4c381043bab6fd0fa6dece3974 https://apnews.com/united-states-presidential-election-9dfb1...
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  Investment in fossil fuels is unlikely when one of the two parties vows to destroy the industry. So even when the right has control of a large oil soaked state like Texas for decades, it's still all the left's fault? Distort reality much? The end of fossil fuels is inevitable. The supply is limited. "Drill baby drill" will only reach the end faster and cause more environmental damage for your kids to deal with.
  - marcusverus 2y ago
    If you feel the need to be a cunt, please go back to reddit.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > even when the right has control of a large oil soaked state like Texas for decades, it's still all the left's fault? This is the line Texan anti-renewable lobbyists are coming out with [1]. [1] https://www.theenergyalliance.com/research/the-end-of-texas-energy-only-electricity-market-emwzw-whh6g-t6dhn https://www.theenergyalliance.com/research/the-end-of-texas-...
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Yet even in oil soaked Texas, renewables account for most new capacity being added to their electrical grid. Why? It's cheaper. Simple economics Texas is still building gas generators [1][2]. Renewables are cheaper, but on the margin. Their production remains low, and despite massive growth, won't going to rival whole-grid growth for at least a decade. (Growth + replacement takes us into the 2040s.) That means we need other power sources for decades to come. America went with gas, which makes sense–we have lots of it. China with coal for the same reason. (Europe, also gas, which doesn’t make sense, but they don’t want to do coal or nuclear and don't seem to be deeply thinking about this.) In the long run we’ll probably be all solar with marginal wind, hydro and experimental sources. That will not happen in our lifetimes. Texas and Germany are prime examples of why simplifying our grid’s future to a single source is not only economically infeasible but also politically self defeating. [1] https://www.power-eng.com/gas/calpine-affirms-plan-to-build-more-natural-gas-plants-in-texas/ https://www.power-eng.com/gas/calpine-affirms-plan-to-build-... [2] https://www.powermag.com/new-gas-fired-power-plants-proposed-in-southeast-texas/ https://www.powermag.com/new-gas-fired-power-plants-proposed...
mk89 2y ago
Yeah but to modernize a company to switch from oil to electricity, if possible at all, requires significant investments. In Germany this has been a major problem for many companies that invested to be greener and the costs were huge. It doesn't matter that 1kwh costs 10 cents less when you need to invest 100 millions to change your infrastructure.

Arnt 2y ago

Do you have done examples of that? I ask because I live in a German city where several large multinationals have their headquarters, and I haven't heard about this happening to any of those companies.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mk89 2y ago
I think by now there plenty of such examples: - https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/konjunktur/insolvenzen-baugewerbe-handel-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/konjunktur/insolvenzen-... - https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-zinsen-und-energiekosten-zahl-der-firmenpleiten-in-deutschland-steigt-deutlich-10913419.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-zinsen-und-energ... - https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-energiekosten-lieferketten-probleme-drohende-handelskonflikte-zahl-der-firmenpleiten-in-deutschland-steigt-weiter-zweistellig-12900745.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/hohe-energiekosten-li... Not sure if VW, Bosch, Thyssenkrupp count, but they have been in the news for a year now...
- Arnt 2y ago
  GP mentioned "many facilities moving to the US", none of those three even mention the US.
  - mk89 2y ago
    Indeed, but it covers the "deindustrialising" issue. Many facilities moving to US.... - https://www.dw.com/en/is-german-industry-migrating-to-the-us/a-65031130 https://www.dw.com/en/is-german-industry-migrating-to-the-us... - https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f... - https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/ https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouri... That's true, they didn't shut down the factories yet, they are just firing thousands of people and opening up / investing in the US :)

V__ 2y ago

Germany is in crisis because for the last two decades, it hasn't been investing in infrastructure, digitalization, education, or anything for that matter. Cheap Russian gas just delayed the chickens coming home to roost.

mk89 2y ago
And I guess bringing renewables to 62% solves that problem? Honestly I find the goal of 100% renewables awesome. But take it easy, with Merkel we reached a very high percentage in a steady way - why not to proceed like that instead of getting crazy.... https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/klima-energie/erneuerbare-energien/erneuerbare-energien-in-zahlen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/klima-energie/erneuerb...
- Blemoloko 2y ago
  [dead]
- panick21_ 2y ago
  There is nothing 'awesome' about 100% renewables. Renewables by itself has no value. What has value is no emissions that kill people, and no CO2. That's awesome. Renewables are at best an implementation detail.
  - mk89 2y ago
    > What has value is no emissions that kill people, and no CO2 Neither of them can be reached with coal/gas/other fossil fuels. In addition, having 100% renewables means that you have an entire society ready for it - from infra to consumers. So, no, that's for me in no way an implementation detail like "I am just swapping A with B" otherwise I am pretty damn sure we could stop everything we're doing and mount solar panels everywhere to reach 100% renewables. In principle I understand what you were trying to say, but I don't agree on the premise that they are just an implementation detail.
    - panick21_ 2y ago

Blemoloko 2y ago

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