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You still have to distinguish between hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language. The facts never change (the dis

You still have to distinguish between hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language. The facts never change (the distance between Dallas and Houstom doesn't change while we are having this conversation), but accurate descriptions require additional concepts and now we get into the imprecise world of human communication. Doubting the precision and accuracy of human language is a fair point, but that doesn't make facts themselves subjective.

dambi0 2y ago
What is Dallas? What is Houston? Which parts do we measure. are we talking about road distance? That something doesn't change during a conversation is not the same the thing as them never changing
- teamonkey 2y ago
  If someone says "it's 250 miles from Houston to Dallas" you know that there will be some error involved. From precisely what part of Houston to what part of Dallas, does it include the outskirts, are they estimating, is it rounded to a nice number, etc. If someone claims "it's 500 miles from Houston to Dallas" they're wrong.
  - dambi0 2y ago
    I’m going to pretend to avoid asking what is a mile and what is 250 and 500 :) I could imagine ways we could interpret “500 miles” the same way as The Proclaimers i.e. as a noteworthy or arduous distance, under which that claim “it’s 500 miles from Dallas to Houston” isn’t contextually false. More interesting is what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is the case. I don’t think it reveals much, but I’m not sure
    - teamonkey 2y ago
      This is much of science: taking a hypothesis, understanding where the bounds of that hypothesis lie, then testing the bounds to try to disprove it. Then creating a more accurate hypothesis within the space of what’s left unknown.
      - dambi0 2y ago
        Unfortunately, I missed out a key word “… what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is [absolutely] the case…” My apologies for this and with the omission I don’t disagree one bit with your reply. On the other hand I can see how we might imagine ways we could scientifically sarisfy ourselves beliefs are not absolute, but I’m not sure how we could satisfy ourselves they are
claytongulick 2y ago
> hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language It's the distinction that you're drawing between those things that I'm skeptical of.
brookst 2y ago
I admire the conviction that things become absolutely true at a sufficient level of specification. So long as facts are represented in language, they are subject to language’s imprecision and subjectivity. And I don’t think that platonic ideals of facts, independent of representstion, have much utility.

dambi0 2y ago

What is Dallas? What is Houston? Which parts do we measure. are we talking about road distance? That something doesn't change during a conversation is not the same the thing as them never changing

teamonkey 2y ago
If someone says "it's 250 miles from Houston to Dallas" you know that there will be some error involved. From precisely what part of Houston to what part of Dallas, does it include the outskirts, are they estimating, is it rounded to a nice number, etc. If someone claims "it's 500 miles from Houston to Dallas" they're wrong.
- dambi0 2y ago
  I’m going to pretend to avoid asking what is a mile and what is 250 and 500 :) I could imagine ways we could interpret “500 miles” the same way as The Proclaimers i.e. as a noteworthy or arduous distance, under which that claim “it’s 500 miles from Dallas to Houston” isn’t contextually false. More interesting is what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is the case. I don’t think it reveals much, but I’m not sure
  - teamonkey 2y ago
    This is much of science: taking a hypothesis, understanding where the bounds of that hypothesis lie, then testing the bounds to try to disprove it. Then creating a more accurate hypothesis within the space of what’s left unknown.
    - dambi0 2y ago
      Unfortunately, I missed out a key word “… what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is [absolutely] the case…” My apologies for this and with the omission I don’t disagree one bit with your reply. On the other hand I can see how we might imagine ways we could scientifically sarisfy ourselves beliefs are not absolute, but I’m not sure how we could satisfy ourselves they are

claytongulick 2y ago

> hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language It's the distinction that you're drawing between those things that I'm skeptical of.

brookst 2y ago

I admire the conviction that things become absolutely true at a sufficient level of specification. So long as facts are represented in language, they are subject to language’s imprecision and subjectivity. And I don’t think that platonic ideals of facts, independent of representstion, have much utility.