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While I get your point, and I think it's strong, I'm entirely unconvinced. Everything we see, do and understand exists in a context window of an individual. We

While I get your point, and I think it's strong, I'm entirely unconvinced. Everything we see, do and understand exists in a context window of an individual. We have a shared language, with which we can inexpertly communicate shared concepts. That language is terrible at communicating certain concepts, so we've invented things like math and counting to try to become more precise. It doesn't make those things "true" universally. It makes them consistent within a certain context. How far it it from Dallas to Houston? On a paper map, it might be a few inches. True, within that context. Or you might get an answer for road miles. Or as the crow flies. In miles? Kilometers? It's only fairly recently (in human history) that we've even had somewhat consistent units of measure. And that whole conversation presupposes an enormous amount of culture knowledge and context - would that question mean anything to a native tribesman in Africa without an enormous amount of inculturation? Are their facts the same? I'm not trying to make a "nothing is true, we can't know anything" kind of argument, that's lazy thinking. I'm making an argument for maintaining skepticism in everything, even (especially?) things that you know for sure.

gmueckl 2y ago
You still have to distinguish between hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language. The facts never change (the distance between Dallas and Houstom doesn't change while we are having this conversation), but accurate descriptions require additional concepts and now we get into the imprecise world of human communication. Doubting the precision and accuracy of human language is a fair point, but that doesn't make facts themselves subjective.
- dambi0 2y ago
  What is Dallas? What is Houston? Which parts do we measure. are we talking about road distance? That something doesn't change during a conversation is not the same the thing as them never changing
  - teamonkey 2y ago
    If someone says "it's 250 miles from Houston to Dallas" you know that there will be some error involved. From precisely what part of Houston to what part of Dallas, does it include the outskirts, are they estimating, is it rounded to a nice number, etc. If someone claims "it's 500 miles from Houston to Dallas" they're wrong.
    - dambi0 2y ago
      I’m going to pretend to avoid asking what is a mile and what is 250 and 500 :) I could imagine ways we could interpret “500 miles” the same way as The Proclaimers i.e. as a noteworthy or arduous distance, under which that claim “it’s 500 miles from Dallas to Houston” isn’t contextually false. More interesting is what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is the case. I don’t think it reveals much, but I’m not sure
      - teamonkey 2y ago
        This is much of science: taking a hypothesis, understanding where the bounds of that hypothesis lie, then testing the bounds to try to disprove it. Then creating a more accurate hypothesis within the space of what’s left unknown.
        dambi0 2y ago
        Unfortunately, I missed out a key word “… what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is [absolutely] the case…” My apologies for this and with the omission I don’t disagree one bit with your reply. On the other hand I can see how we might imagine ways we could scientifically sarisfy ourselves beliefs are not absolute, but I’m not sure how we could satisfy ourselves they are
- claytongulick 2y ago
  > hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language It's the distinction that you're drawing between those things that I'm skeptical of.
- brookst 2y ago
  I admire the conviction that things become absolutely true at a sufficient level of specification. So long as facts are represented in language, they are subject to language’s imprecision and subjectivity. And I don’t think that platonic ideals of facts, independent of representstion, have much utility.
jachee 2y ago
> How far it it from Dallas to Houston? On a paper map, it might be a few inches. True, within that context. Or you might get an answer for road miles. Or as the crow flies. In miles? Kilometers? It's only fairly recently (in human history) that we've even had somewhat consistent units of measure. No one’s opinion is going to make them closer together or farther apart, though. The distance (in whatever context) can be known. Can be objectively measured. That makes it a fact. > I'm making an argument for maintaining skepticism in everything, even (especially?) things that you know for sure. Are you skeptical about which way to put your feet when you get out of bed? Do you check to make sure every single time?

gmueckl 2y ago

You still have to distinguish between hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language. The facts never change (the distance between Dallas and Houstom doesn't change while we are having this conversation), but accurate descriptions require additional concepts and now we get into the imprecise world of human communication. Doubting the precision and accuracy of human language is a fair point, but that doesn't make facts themselves subjective.

dambi0 2y ago
What is Dallas? What is Houston? Which parts do we measure. are we talking about road distance? That something doesn't change during a conversation is not the same the thing as them never changing
- teamonkey 2y ago
  If someone says "it's 250 miles from Houston to Dallas" you know that there will be some error involved. From precisely what part of Houston to what part of Dallas, does it include the outskirts, are they estimating, is it rounded to a nice number, etc. If someone claims "it's 500 miles from Houston to Dallas" they're wrong.
  - dambi0 2y ago
    I’m going to pretend to avoid asking what is a mile and what is 250 and 500 :) I could imagine ways we could interpret “500 miles” the same way as The Proclaimers i.e. as a noteworthy or arduous distance, under which that claim “it’s 500 miles from Dallas to Houston” isn’t contextually false. More interesting is what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is the case. I don’t think it reveals much, but I’m not sure
    - teamonkey 2y ago
      This is much of science: taking a hypothesis, understanding where the bounds of that hypothesis lie, then testing the bounds to try to disprove it. Then creating a more accurate hypothesis within the space of what’s left unknown.
      - dambi0 2y ago
        Unfortunately, I missed out a key word “… what knowing that things are not the case tells us about what we can know is [absolutely] the case…” My apologies for this and with the omission I don’t disagree one bit with your reply. On the other hand I can see how we might imagine ways we could scientifically sarisfy ourselves beliefs are not absolute, but I’m not sure how we could satisfy ourselves they are
claytongulick 2y ago
> hard, absolute facts which definitely exist and representations thereof in human language It's the distinction that you're drawing between those things that I'm skeptical of.
brookst 2y ago
I admire the conviction that things become absolutely true at a sufficient level of specification. So long as facts are represented in language, they are subject to language’s imprecision and subjectivity. And I don’t think that platonic ideals of facts, independent of representstion, have much utility.

jachee 2y ago

> How far it it from Dallas to Houston? On a paper map, it might be a few inches. True, within that context. Or you might get an answer for road miles. Or as the crow flies. In miles? Kilometers? It's only fairly recently (in human history) that we've even had somewhat consistent units of measure. No one’s opinion is going to make them closer together or farther apart, though. The distance (in whatever context) can be known. Can be objectively measured. That makes it a fact. > I'm making an argument for maintaining skepticism in everything, even (especially?) things that you know for sure. Are you skeptical about which way to put your feet when you get out of bed? Do you check to make sure every single time?