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> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness. Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to

> I refuse to accept that empathy is a weakness. It is not. But also, empathy is not the same thing as kindness. Empathy, as you mentioned, is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes. To imagine what is like to be other. Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. But they're not kind, they are ruthless. > I feel like part of what defines us as a species is learning how to understand people who do not deserve us to understand them. Here you are talking about kindness. I think similarly. I also believe this is correlated with creativity and collaboration skills. To me, there is something about the inner act of kind understanding that seems to be a _prerequisite_ for advanced communication. Totally out of my ass, I'm no psychologist. > I would hope that if I were caught for something stupid when I was 17 someone else would have extended me the same benefit of the doubt Not only you understood that, but you were able to communicate something to the kid that is remarkably uncommunicable. The kind act is also a kind message, you _meant it_ as a message somehow. Not all empaths want or can do that.

tombert 2y ago
I don't think I disagree with anything you said (though I'm hesitant to call myself creative). I guess when I say "empathy", I also mean "feeling someone's pain", in addition to the "someone else's shoes". I think being able to understand someone's situation, and see how they're actually hurting, and how you'd hurt if someone did that to you, is the part of empathy/kindness that is a key ingredient in being a "decent human". I'm not perfect at it, obviously, I've acted selfishly plenty of times and I regret the times that I have, but it's the closest thing I have to a "moral code". In regards to this kid, I just remember how angry I was at everything when I was 17. I hated going to school, I hated most of my teachers, I hated most of my classmates, I hated girls who wouldn't date me, and I hated guys who wouldn't be my friend. I was an idiot. It's a tough age for anyone, and I think a lot of people (particularly those in charge the US penal codes) forget that fact.
- alganet 2y ago
  I meant creativity in a broader sense. Like "using stone tools", not "painting and dancing" (but not excluding it!). Kind empathy has been demonstrated in some rats (a highly intelligent animal): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms Note the researchers mentioning a "social contagion" that encourages empathy (another one of your kind crying, you cry). The goal of the experiment is to detect an even deeper kind of empathy (the savior rat is also in high stress and must overcome its instincts to save his fellow rat). The thing you did for the kid required much more sophistication than that. Some of that sophistication comes from or manifests as empathy, in the sense that they're correlated. I'm also saying it in a broader sense than only biological in rats. But that's the part that science has no data yet, so that's why I say it comes from my conjecturing ass.
- martinmakesgame 2y ago
  Empathy is I feel what you feel. Compassion is I understand what you feel, how can we help? It is usually better to aim for compassion because if a person is having a crisis you don't want to go down in flames with them, compassion gives us emotional space to be helpful rather than affected by emotions that can pull us down.
  - 542354234235 2y ago
    As someone who tries to be compassionate, with an SO that is highly empathetic, the former is far better. She is often emotionally debilitated by being emotionally devastated by things happening to family, friends, strangers, news stories. I think it actually skews her ability to be compassionate, because she acts in shortsighted ways to attempt to relieve her proxy emotions, instead of taking a step back and finding a better solution to the person suffering. No one that is already empathetic should attempt to increase their empathy. A little goes a long way and you should work on building compassion, understanding, patience, etc.
justin66 2y ago
> Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. No, psychopathy is clinically defined in part by a lack of empathy.
- alganet 2y ago
  As I said, I'm no psychologist. I am also not a psychiatrist or neurologist. If you are one, I'm sure there's more to it than just "lack of empathy", and I would love to hear more.

tombert 2y ago

I don't think I disagree with anything you said (though I'm hesitant to call myself creative). I guess when I say "empathy", I also mean "feeling someone's pain", in addition to the "someone else's shoes". I think being able to understand someone's situation, and see how they're actually hurting, and how you'd hurt if someone did that to you, is the part of empathy/kindness that is a key ingredient in being a "decent human". I'm not perfect at it, obviously, I've acted selfishly plenty of times and I regret the times that I have, but it's the closest thing I have to a "moral code". In regards to this kid, I just remember how angry I was at everything when I was 17. I hated going to school, I hated most of my teachers, I hated most of my classmates, I hated girls who wouldn't date me, and I hated guys who wouldn't be my friend. I was an idiot. It's a tough age for anyone, and I think a lot of people (particularly those in charge the US penal codes) forget that fact.

alganet 2y ago
I meant creativity in a broader sense. Like "using stone tools", not "painting and dancing" (but not excluding it!). Kind empathy has been demonstrated in some rats (a highly intelligent animal): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyolz2Qf1ms Note the researchers mentioning a "social contagion" that encourages empathy (another one of your kind crying, you cry). The goal of the experiment is to detect an even deeper kind of empathy (the savior rat is also in high stress and must overcome its instincts to save his fellow rat). The thing you did for the kid required much more sophistication than that. Some of that sophistication comes from or manifests as empathy, in the sense that they're correlated. I'm also saying it in a broader sense than only biological in rats. But that's the part that science has no data yet, so that's why I say it comes from my conjecturing ass.
martinmakesgame 2y ago
Empathy is I feel what you feel. Compassion is I understand what you feel, how can we help? It is usually better to aim for compassion because if a person is having a crisis you don't want to go down in flames with them, compassion gives us emotional space to be helpful rather than affected by emotions that can pull us down.
- 542354234235 2y ago
  As someone who tries to be compassionate, with an SO that is highly empathetic, the former is far better. She is often emotionally debilitated by being emotionally devastated by things happening to family, friends, strangers, news stories. I think it actually skews her ability to be compassionate, because she acts in shortsighted ways to attempt to relieve her proxy emotions, instead of taking a step back and finding a better solution to the person suffering. No one that is already empathetic should attempt to increase their empathy. A little goes a long way and you should work on building compassion, understanding, patience, etc.

justin66 2y ago

> Fraudsters, cheaters, psycopaths. All of these are great empaths. They understand others in a deep level. No, psychopathy is clinically defined in part by a lack of empathy.

alganet 2y ago
As I said, I'm no psychologist. I am also not a psychiatrist or neurologist. If you are one, I'm sure there's more to it than just "lack of empathy", and I would love to hear more.