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I will be amazed if a technology solution in biology can compete with 100 million years of evolution. Even children born via C-section are put at a measurable d

I will be amazed if a technology solution in biology can compete with 100 million years of evolution. Even children born via C-section are put at a measurable disadvantage due to micro biome stuff.

ben_w 2y ago
You may be amazed, but that doesn't make it implausible. We already did beat evolution first with wheels, later with steam, then with jet engines, nuclear reactors, heart transplants, vaccines, exogenous steroids, etc. Evolution hit a constraint with us, our increased brain size making childbirth unusually difficult for humans compared to other species; all of us are born premature by the standard of our nearest wild relatives, and have to be premature just so the mother doesn't die all the time, merely unusually often.
MandieD 2y ago
But that's possibly outweighed by the advantages implied by their mothers having the resources (personal or societal) to get their babies out safely for both themselves and said babies at later ages (mother and/or father have more advanced careers and financial stability) and despite their physical condition. My kid (born when I, his mother, was 40) is a second generation C-section baby who, had my own mother (who had me at 35) been born in the 60s instead of the 40s, likely would have been a 3rd generation C-section baby. My mother was 10.5 lbs at birth and left my grandmother unable to have another child in her early 20s. Perhaps I can't eat crustaceans and have a stuffed nose for several weeks in the spring because I didn't get my mother's microbiome. I'll take that trade; my mother was then able and willing to go on to have my little brother. I'll also wager that as a Western middle-class middle-aged professional who had my kid about a decade after I "should have" (can't plan everything!), my child's material circumstances and opportunities would be the envy 90-95% of his agemates worldwide. I'm definitely providing a better education than a semi-literate 17-year-old Afghani woman who could only have hers "the old fashioned way".
- triyambakam 2y ago
  Sure, just trivialize the constraints of systemic barriers, political instability, and gender-based oppression that limit educational and reproductive choices for many Afghan women.
  - MandieD 2y ago
    I agree that what's happened to Afghan women is a horror, and one I do what I can to prevent being implemented in any measure by the "but falling birthrates! Why won't young women have more baaaaabies?! Why do they wait so long?" crowd - including reminding folks why Caesarean sections aren't horrible, even ones like the one I didn't have to have, strictly speaking, but had a good chance of sparing me an injury I would have had a very hard time dealing with while caring for a newborn. I'm thankful that I live in a well-resourced country with near gender-equality in which I've always had a lot of choices, including the one that saved my life about a decade before I had my child - a choice that is being eroded in my home state. (I've read about what life in urban Afghanistan was like for women in the 1960s and 1970s, so I'm well aware of how far we can fall, given the right religious nutjobs in charge. Franco's Spain freaks me out, too.)
  - 542354234235 2y ago
    I think you are confusing "trivializing" with "highlighting".
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  It’s fascinating that there are now babies that require c-sections for reasons you allude to. It’s definitely possible to facilitate this type of genetic line in the context of wealth and abundances, but if it became the more than the norm, any war or famine would be devastating.
pjc50 2y ago
> children born via C-section are put at a measurable disadvantage due to micro biome stuff. [citation needed]
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  https://www.rutgers.edu/news/hidden-reason-children-born-c-section-are-more-likely-develop-asthma https://www.rutgers.edu/news/hidden-reason-children-born-c-s... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629081443.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629081443.h... https://health.howstuffworks.com/pregnancy-and-parenting/pregnancy/labor-delivery/csections-can-affect-a-babys-immune-system.htm https://health.howstuffworks.com/pregnancy-and-parenting/pre... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/09/18/gut-bacteria-caesarean-babies-found-abnormal-bringing-fears/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/09/18/gut-bacteria-... Hundreds of papers on this topic.

I will be amazed if a technology solution in biology can compete with 100 million years of evolution. Even children born via C-section are put at a measurable disadvantage due to micro biome stuff.

ben_w 2y ago

You may be amazed, but that doesn't make it implausible. We already did beat evolution first with wheels, later with steam, then with jet engines, nuclear reactors, heart transplants, vaccines, exogenous steroids, etc. Evolution hit a constraint with us, our increased brain size making childbirth unusually difficult for humans compared to other species; all of us are born premature by the standard of our nearest wild relatives, and have to be premature just so the mother doesn't die all the time, merely unusually often.

MandieD 2y ago

But that's possibly outweighed by the advantages implied by their mothers having the resources (personal or societal) to get their babies out safely for both themselves and said babies at later ages (mother and/or father have more advanced careers and financial stability) and despite their physical condition. My kid (born when I, his mother, was 40) is a second generation C-section baby who, had my own mother (who had me at 35) been born in the 60s instead of the 40s, likely would have been a 3rd generation C-section baby. My mother was 10.5 lbs at birth and left my grandmother unable to have another child in her early 20s. Perhaps I can't eat crustaceans and have a stuffed nose for several weeks in the spring because I didn't get my mother's microbiome. I'll take that trade; my mother was then able and willing to go on to have my little brother. I'll also wager that as a Western middle-class middle-aged professional who had my kid about a decade after I "should have" (can't plan everything!), my child's material circumstances and opportunities would be the envy 90-95% of his agemates worldwide. I'm definitely providing a better education than a semi-literate 17-year-old Afghani woman who could only have hers "the old fashioned way".

triyambakam 2y ago
Sure, just trivialize the constraints of systemic barriers, political instability, and gender-based oppression that limit educational and reproductive choices for many Afghan women.
- MandieD 2y ago
  I agree that what's happened to Afghan women is a horror, and one I do what I can to prevent being implemented in any measure by the "but falling birthrates! Why won't young women have more baaaaabies?! Why do they wait so long?" crowd - including reminding folks why Caesarean sections aren't horrible, even ones like the one I didn't have to have, strictly speaking, but had a good chance of sparing me an injury I would have had a very hard time dealing with while caring for a newborn. I'm thankful that I live in a well-resourced country with near gender-equality in which I've always had a lot of choices, including the one that saved my life about a decade before I had my child - a choice that is being eroded in my home state. (I've read about what life in urban Afghanistan was like for women in the 1960s and 1970s, so I'm well aware of how far we can fall, given the right religious nutjobs in charge. Franco's Spain freaks me out, too.)
- 542354234235 2y ago
  I think you are confusing "trivializing" with "highlighting".
mensetmanusman 2y ago
It’s fascinating that there are now babies that require c-sections for reasons you allude to. It’s definitely possible to facilitate this type of genetic line in the context of wealth and abundances, but if it became the more than the norm, any war or famine would be devastating.

pjc50 2y ago

> children born via C-section are put at a measurable disadvantage due to micro biome stuff. [citation needed]

mensetmanusman 2y ago
https://www.rutgers.edu/news/hidden-reason-children-born-c-section-are-more-likely-develop-asthma https://www.rutgers.edu/news/hidden-reason-children-born-c-s... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629081443.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090629081443.h... https://health.howstuffworks.com/pregnancy-and-parenting/pregnancy/labor-delivery/csections-can-affect-a-babys-immune-system.htm https://health.howstuffworks.com/pregnancy-and-parenting/pre... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/09/18/gut-bacteria-caesarean-babies-found-abnormal-bringing-fears/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/09/18/gut-bacteria-... Hundreds of papers on this topic.