4 ms·

2000 people per hour is really not that much. And reducing density will not buy you much - density itself doesn't mean anything. If you have a suburb with 50 00

2000 people per hour is really not that much. And reducing density will not buy you much - density itself doesn't mean anything. If you have a suburb with 50 000 people living there and an office park with 25 000 people working there (both not particularly high numbers), you get a traffic flow of 25 000 people moving both ways, during rush hour. That's grossly simplifying things, but you should be able to get the point. What would buy you much is mixed neighborhoods (aka: the 15 minute city - everything you need for your daily life is within 15 minutes walking distance), because this will eliminate many trips. But mixed neighborhoods work better with higher density - because a supermarket in a low density place cannot be within 15 minutes walking distance. Also: This is about NYC. How would you even go about reducing Manhattens density to a level where no road is used by less than 2000 (or 4000) people per hour during rush hour?

cyberax 2y ago
> That's grossly simplifying things, but you should be able to get the point. No, that's called "lying by omission". A person working in an office park doesn't live in one particular housing area assigned to it. So you get a distributed flow instead. And it's also why transit sucks (sucked, and will always suck): it's unlikely that there's a direct fast transit route between your house and your job. And each connection adds around 10 minutes on average to the commute. > Also: This is about NYC. How would you even go about reducing Manhattens density to a level where no road is used by less than 2000 (or 4000) people per hour during rush hour? Tax the dense office space like it's an industrial pollution.
- sunshowers 2y ago
  I almost got into an accident today when a car swerved 4 lanes to the right because an absentminded driver wanted to take the exit at the last second. Like most attentive drivers, I don't like driving on public roads — it brings out the worst in us. This is on top of the rather fundamental geometry problem that cars present.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Thankfully, robots will save us. I wouldn't be pushing for cars, if it were not for the existence of Waymo. > This is on top of the rather fundamental geometry problem that cars present. Yeah. They are waaaaay too good at allowing people to move, so urbanists wage an all-out war on them. Transit has this inherent problem: it HAS to suck. You can't realistically build a fast public transit network allowing easy arbitrary point-to-point trips. It's just mathematically impossible. So transit does what it can only kinda-sorta do well: move people to Downtowns from dense living residential areas.
    - sunshowers 2y ago
      I don't hate cars. I own and drive a car, though I mostly take transit into SF to avoid the stress. By geometry problem, what I mean is that an individual car just takes up far too much space (both while moving and while parked) to be compatible with even a moderately dense environment. You need some kind of rationing or metering. The presence of cars alters the built world in a direction which favors more cars. There are more parking lots, which means less density, which means fewer people can choose to live closer to work, which means more cars, and so on. (Transit does the same in its own favor, of course. Transportation is quite fundamental.) It is true that transit doesn't work as well with how post-war American suburbs are typically laid out. But it works quite well with the levels of density in pre-war "streetcar suburbs", like those built around the Key System in Oakland. I think the most reasonable solution for post-war suburbs is transit most of the way, and cars (robotic or otherwise) for the last mile.
      - cyberax 2y ago
        > By geometry problem, what I mean is that an individual car just takes up far too much space And? Buses also take a lot of space. A road footprint of a bus is equivalent to about 15-20 cars (because it has to stop often). It pays off when the bus is fully occupied, but outside of rush hours, cars are a more _efficient_ way to use the road space. Cars force city designers to build in a people-oriented way, rather than optimize for bike lanes. > The presence of cars alters the built world in a direction which favors more cars Yes, and that's great. The world where people are free to move is so much better than Soviet-style arrangements where you have to live in your factory's provided units. With great transit, sure. > It is true that transit doesn't work as well with how post-war American suburbs are typically laid out It works nowhere. And yes, I lived in very dense areas (Amsterdam, NYC, Moscow).

cyberax 2y ago

> That's grossly simplifying things, but you should be able to get the point. No, that's called "lying by omission". A person working in an office park doesn't live in one particular housing area assigned to it. So you get a distributed flow instead. And it's also why transit sucks (sucked, and will always suck): it's unlikely that there's a direct fast transit route between your house and your job. And each connection adds around 10 minutes on average to the commute. > Also: This is about NYC. How would you even go about reducing Manhattens density to a level where no road is used by less than 2000 (or 4000) people per hour during rush hour? Tax the dense office space like it's an industrial pollution.

sunshowers 2y ago
I almost got into an accident today when a car swerved 4 lanes to the right because an absentminded driver wanted to take the exit at the last second. Like most attentive drivers, I don't like driving on public roads — it brings out the worst in us. This is on top of the rather fundamental geometry problem that cars present.
- cyberax 2y ago
  Thankfully, robots will save us. I wouldn't be pushing for cars, if it were not for the existence of Waymo. > This is on top of the rather fundamental geometry problem that cars present. Yeah. They are waaaaay too good at allowing people to move, so urbanists wage an all-out war on them. Transit has this inherent problem: it HAS to suck. You can't realistically build a fast public transit network allowing easy arbitrary point-to-point trips. It's just mathematically impossible. So transit does what it can only kinda-sorta do well: move people to Downtowns from dense living residential areas.
  - sunshowers 2y ago
    I don't hate cars. I own and drive a car, though I mostly take transit into SF to avoid the stress. By geometry problem, what I mean is that an individual car just takes up far too much space (both while moving and while parked) to be compatible with even a moderately dense environment. You need some kind of rationing or metering. The presence of cars alters the built world in a direction which favors more cars. There are more parking lots, which means less density, which means fewer people can choose to live closer to work, which means more cars, and so on. (Transit does the same in its own favor, of course. Transportation is quite fundamental.) It is true that transit doesn't work as well with how post-war American suburbs are typically laid out. But it works quite well with the levels of density in pre-war "streetcar suburbs", like those built around the Key System in Oakland. I think the most reasonable solution for post-war suburbs is transit most of the way, and cars (robotic or otherwise) for the last mile.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      > By geometry problem, what I mean is that an individual car just takes up far too much space And? Buses also take a lot of space. A road footprint of a bus is equivalent to about 15-20 cars (because it has to stop often). It pays off when the bus is fully occupied, but outside of rush hours, cars are a more _efficient_ way to use the road space. Cars force city designers to build in a people-oriented way, rather than optimize for bike lanes. > The presence of cars alters the built world in a direction which favors more cars Yes, and that's great. The world where people are free to move is so much better than Soviet-style arrangements where you have to live in your factory's provided units. With great transit, sure. > It is true that transit doesn't work as well with how post-war American suburbs are typically laid out It works nowhere. And yes, I lived in very dense areas (Amsterdam, NYC, Moscow).