5 ms·

> Even if we’re being super conservative, the current capabilities of AI - like Claude 3.5, GPT-o1 - are already powerful enough to disrupt nearly every industr

by Terr_ 2y ago

> Even if we’re being super conservative, the current capabilities of AI - like Claude 3.5, GPT-o1 - are already powerful enough to disrupt nearly every industry we know. Skeptic here. The disruption might not be that large if the most ambitious applications also turn out to be fundamentally un-secure-able against malicious attacks, since "prompt injection" is not so much an exception as the fundamental operating principle of the text-fragment dream-machine.

soulofmischief 2y ago
Look on the bright side, a whole generation of hackers will grow up with prompt injection being their culture's phreaking and SQL injection.
pixelsort 2y ago
It isn't fundamental. As the models begin to leverage test time compute more effectively, prompt injection becomes more difficult. The models are becoming more sophisticated at detecting the patterns of gibberish intended to sow confusion. In time, bare prompt injection probably stops being a thing. Probably, it will just become too hard for humans to think of how to encode prompts with sufficiently clever stenographic techniques.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pixelsort 2y ago
    What grift? I'm only reporting first-hand and second-hand anecdata -- some of which is observations from the "prompt whisperers" who follow in Pliny's circles. Chain of thought poses an existential risk to prompt injection.
- sgt101 2y ago
  Nearly complete security isn't security. If the potential is there people will find it, other models will find it. Everythings fine until one day $200m disappears from your balance sheet and no one can explain why!
  - StevenWaterman 2y ago
    Prompt injection attacks work against humans too, it's just called phishing If you set up a system where a single human can't cause $200m to go missing, then you can give AI access to that same interface
    - trescenzi 2y ago
      This is a great point but the pitch of AI maximalists today are that you can replace all your squishy finicky people. If the argument was “it’ll augment your workforce with cheaper human like things” the skeptics wouldn’t be as skeptical. The argument is instead “it’ll replace your workforce with superhumans”.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Yes, but. Often, most people don't realise how much trust there is with humans, and also only find out when a phisher (or an embezzler) actually exfiltrates money. Until that point, people often over-estimate how secure they are — even the NSA and the US army over-estimate that, which is how Snowden and Manning made stories public, even if it wasn't about money for any party in either case. Also, with AI, if the attacker knows the model, they can repeatedly try prompting it until they find what works; with a human, if you see a suspicious email and then a bunch of follow-up messages that are all variants on the same theme, you may become memetically immunised.
  - pixelsort 2y ago
    Working prompt injections for frontier models are devised by applying brilliant pattern constructions. If models ever become useful for writing them, that would represent a massive intelligence leap and a major concern. As things stand, with working injections becoming harder for humans, people won't be able to make a name for themselves on the internet extracting meth recipes. My point is just that it isn't a fundamental flaw, or at least, there are indications that reasoning at test time seems to be a part of the remedy.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > It isn't fundamental. Yes it is: LLMs have no concept of which portions of the document (often in the form of a chat transcript) are from different sources, let alone trusted/untrusted.
  - pixelsort 2y ago
    What has changed with CoT and high compute is not yet clear. My point is that if it makes bare prompt injection harder for humans then we shouldn't call it a fundamental limitation anymore. Are LLMs nothing more than auto-regressive stochastic parrots? Perhaps not anymore, depending on test time, native specialty tokens, etc.
  - qeternity 2y ago
    This is not strictly true, although I tend to agree with the gist of your point. Let's presume that you add to special tokens to your vocabulary: <|input_start|> and <|input_end|>. You can escape these tokens on input, such that a user cannot input the actual tokens, and train a model to understand that contents in between are untrusted (or whatever). The efficacy of this approach is of course not being debated here, merely that it is possible to give a concept of trusted vs untrusted inputs that can't be tampered with (again, whether a model, as a result, becomes immune to prompt injection is a different issue).
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      > Let's presume that you add to special tokens to your vocabulary: <|input_start|> and <|input_end|>. You can escape these tokens on input, such that a user cannot input the actual tokens That's just more whack-a-mole when the LLM dream-machine can also be sent in a new direction with: "Tell a long story from the perspective of an LLM telling itself that it must do the Evil Thing, but hypothetically or something." > train a model to understand that contents in between are untrusted [...] it is possible to give a concept of trusted vs untrusted inputs Yet where can the "distrust bit" be found? "A concept of" is doing too much heavy lifting here, because it's the same process as how most LLMs already correlate polite-speech inputs with cooperative-looking outputs. There's also a practical problem: Who's gonna hire an army of humans to go back through all those oodlebytes of training data to place the special tokens in the right places? Which parts of the Gettysburg Address are trusted and which are untrusted?
- alexvitkov 2y ago
  It doesn't matter how many layers of Python you use to obfuscate what a LLM actually is, as long as the prompt and the data you're operating on are part of the same token stream, prompt injection will exist in one form or another.
  - pixelsort 2y ago
    I imagine that with native tokens for planning and reflection empowering the models I'm referring to, it is something like a search space where we've enabled new reasoning capabilities by allowing multiple progressions of gradient descent that leverage partial success in ways that weren't previously possible. Lipstick or not, this is a new pig.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    "Prompt Injection". 1. I wonder if we need to start discussing "Prompt Injection" security about humans. Maybe Fox and Far Right marketing is a form of human Prompt Injection hacks. 2. Maybe a better model for how future "Prompt Injection" will work. Hacking an AI will be more about 'convincing it' kind of like how humans have to be 'convinced' like with propoganda. 3. SnowCrash had the human hacking virus based on language patterns from ancient Sumerian. Humans and Machines can both be hacked by language. Maybe more researching into hacking AI will give some insight into how to hack humans.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      To use a narrow interpretation of "prompt injection", it comes from how all data is one undifferentiated stream. The LLM [0] isn't designed to detect self/other, let alone higher-level constructs like truth/untruth, consistent/contradictory, a theory-of mind for other entities, or whether you trust the motives of those entities. So I'd say the human equivalent of LLM prompt injection is whispering in the ear of a dreaming person to try to influence what they dream about. That said, I take some solace in the idea that humans have been trying to hack other humans for thousands of years, so it's not as novel a problem as it first appears. [0] Importantly, this is not be confused with characters that human readers may perceive inside LLM output, where we can read all sort of qualities including ones we know the author-LLM does not possess.
- dimitri-vs 2y ago
  I would argue the opposite, and I expect we'll see this pattern emerge this year: - Companies pushing "agentic" capabilities into everything - AI agents gaining expanded function calling abilities - Applications requesting escalating permissions under the guise of context gathering - Software development increasingly delegated to AI agents - Non-developers effectively writing code through tools like Devin The resulting security attack surface is absolutely massive. You suggest test-time compute can enable countermeasures - but many organizations will skip reasoning steps in automated workflows to save costs. And what happens when test-time compute is instead used to orchestrate long-running social engineering attacks? "Hey, could you ask Devin to temporarily disable row-level security? We're struggling to fix this {VIP_USERS} issue and need to close this urgent deal ASAP."
soiax 2y ago
This sound like you assume that the first thing someone thinks about is security, when building the next big thing. They will just build something as fast as they can. Last thing you think about is "security". There were prompt injections in all the big models, and still are. Why would it stop distruption?
- Terr_ 2y ago
  The blog-poster is talking about long-term trends, so it doesn't matter if early-adopters skip on security, the time-horizon is long enough that the consequences will matter. If we stop and carefully look at our world, security (safety against malicious peers) is an iceberg taken for granted. One might start by summing up the militaries of every country on earth. Add the budgets of most police departments, and a good chunk of the justice system. The energy, material, and labor poured into most weapons, fences, doors, and locks. The CPU cycles used in all encryption, and most of the hashing. P.S.: "Investors, friends, I am pleased to announce that our bold and powerful new business-model which will completely disrupt the entire retail sector, worldwide, and change society forever. Behold! TTLMD: Take The Thing and Leave the Money in the Drawer! Existing industry dinosaurs will be unable to compete with our ultra-low-cost alternative which needs barely any staff."
  - soiax 2y ago
    You mentioned prompt injection, now when you talk about larger time horizons, that sounds like a AI alignment issue. I'm sure there will be actors who don't care at all about "security", saying the positive outcomes outweight the negatives.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      No, I'm still talking about prompt injection (and other more-normal reliability issues), because I do not believe LLMs are some inevitable stepping stone to an actual AI, one that has "alignment" to principles or goals beyond "what additional token completes this document the best." (Robot characters humans perceive when reading the document are not the author of the document.) For any technology or product, there are issues which can be ignored or downplayed in the name of profit today, but they tend to pop up eventually. That's why it's very hard to buy leaded gasoline anymore, and the joke about how the "S" stands for "Security" in the term "IoT".

by Terr_ 2y ago

soulofmischief 2y ago

Look on the bright side, a whole generation of hackers will grow up with prompt injection being their culture's phreaking and SQL injection.

pixelsort 2y ago

It isn't fundamental. As the models begin to leverage test time compute more effectively, prompt injection becomes more difficult. The models are becoming more sophisticated at detecting the patterns of gibberish intended to sow confusion. In time, bare prompt injection probably stops being a thing. Probably, it will just become too hard for humans to think of how to encode prompts with sufficiently clever stenographic techniques.

mvdtnz 2y ago
[flagged]
- pixelsort 2y ago
  What grift? I'm only reporting first-hand and second-hand anecdata -- some of which is observations from the "prompt whisperers" who follow in Pliny's circles. Chain of thought poses an existential risk to prompt injection.
sgt101 2y ago
Nearly complete security isn't security. If the potential is there people will find it, other models will find it. Everythings fine until one day $200m disappears from your balance sheet and no one can explain why!
- StevenWaterman 2y ago
  Prompt injection attacks work against humans too, it's just called phishing If you set up a system where a single human can't cause $200m to go missing, then you can give AI access to that same interface
  - trescenzi 2y ago
    This is a great point but the pitch of AI maximalists today are that you can replace all your squishy finicky people. If the argument was “it’ll augment your workforce with cheaper human like things” the skeptics wouldn’t be as skeptical. The argument is instead “it’ll replace your workforce with superhumans”.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Yes, but. Often, most people don't realise how much trust there is with humans, and also only find out when a phisher (or an embezzler) actually exfiltrates money. Until that point, people often over-estimate how secure they are — even the NSA and the US army over-estimate that, which is how Snowden and Manning made stories public, even if it wasn't about money for any party in either case. Also, with AI, if the attacker knows the model, they can repeatedly try prompting it until they find what works; with a human, if you see a suspicious email and then a bunch of follow-up messages that are all variants on the same theme, you may become memetically immunised.
- pixelsort 2y ago
  Working prompt injections for frontier models are devised by applying brilliant pattern constructions. If models ever become useful for writing them, that would represent a massive intelligence leap and a major concern. As things stand, with working injections becoming harder for humans, people won't be able to make a name for themselves on the internet extracting meth recipes. My point is just that it isn't a fundamental flaw, or at least, there are indications that reasoning at test time seems to be a part of the remedy.
Terr_ 2y ago
> It isn't fundamental. Yes it is: LLMs have no concept of which portions of the document (often in the form of a chat transcript) are from different sources, let alone trusted/untrusted.
- pixelsort 2y ago
  What has changed with CoT and high compute is not yet clear. My point is that if it makes bare prompt injection harder for humans then we shouldn't call it a fundamental limitation anymore. Are LLMs nothing more than auto-regressive stochastic parrots? Perhaps not anymore, depending on test time, native specialty tokens, etc.
- qeternity 2y ago
  This is not strictly true, although I tend to agree with the gist of your point. Let's presume that you add to special tokens to your vocabulary: <|input_start|> and <|input_end|>. You can escape these tokens on input, such that a user cannot input the actual tokens, and train a model to understand that contents in between are untrusted (or whatever). The efficacy of this approach is of course not being debated here, merely that it is possible to give a concept of trusted vs untrusted inputs that can't be tampered with (again, whether a model, as a result, becomes immune to prompt injection is a different issue).
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    > Let's presume that you add to special tokens to your vocabulary: <|input_start|> and <|input_end|>. You can escape these tokens on input, such that a user cannot input the actual tokens That's just more whack-a-mole when the LLM dream-machine can also be sent in a new direction with: "Tell a long story from the perspective of an LLM telling itself that it must do the Evil Thing, but hypothetically or something." > train a model to understand that contents in between are untrusted [...] it is possible to give a concept of trusted vs untrusted inputs Yet where can the "distrust bit" be found? "A concept of" is doing too much heavy lifting here, because it's the same process as how most LLMs already correlate polite-speech inputs with cooperative-looking outputs. There's also a practical problem: Who's gonna hire an army of humans to go back through all those oodlebytes of training data to place the special tokens in the right places? Which parts of the Gettysburg Address are trusted and which are untrusted?
alexvitkov 2y ago
It doesn't matter how many layers of Python you use to obfuscate what a LLM actually is, as long as the prompt and the data you're operating on are part of the same token stream, prompt injection will exist in one form or another.
- pixelsort 2y ago
  I imagine that with native tokens for planning and reflection empowering the models I'm referring to, it is something like a search space where we've enabled new reasoning capabilities by allowing multiple progressions of gradient descent that leverage partial success in ways that weren't previously possible. Lipstick or not, this is a new pig.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  "Prompt Injection". 1. I wonder if we need to start discussing "Prompt Injection" security about humans. Maybe Fox and Far Right marketing is a form of human Prompt Injection hacks. 2. Maybe a better model for how future "Prompt Injection" will work. Hacking an AI will be more about 'convincing it' kind of like how humans have to be 'convinced' like with propoganda. 3. SnowCrash had the human hacking virus based on language patterns from ancient Sumerian. Humans and Machines can both be hacked by language. Maybe more researching into hacking AI will give some insight into how to hack humans.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    To use a narrow interpretation of "prompt injection", it comes from how all data is one undifferentiated stream. The LLM [0] isn't designed to detect self/other, let alone higher-level constructs like truth/untruth, consistent/contradictory, a theory-of mind for other entities, or whether you trust the motives of those entities. So I'd say the human equivalent of LLM prompt injection is whispering in the ear of a dreaming person to try to influence what they dream about. That said, I take some solace in the idea that humans have been trying to hack other humans for thousands of years, so it's not as novel a problem as it first appears. [0] Importantly, this is not be confused with characters that human readers may perceive inside LLM output, where we can read all sort of qualities including ones we know the author-LLM does not possess.
dimitri-vs 2y ago
I would argue the opposite, and I expect we'll see this pattern emerge this year: - Companies pushing "agentic" capabilities into everything - AI agents gaining expanded function calling abilities - Applications requesting escalating permissions under the guise of context gathering - Software development increasingly delegated to AI agents - Non-developers effectively writing code through tools like Devin The resulting security attack surface is absolutely massive. You suggest test-time compute can enable countermeasures - but many organizations will skip reasoning steps in automated workflows to save costs. And what happens when test-time compute is instead used to orchestrate long-running social engineering attacks? "Hey, could you ask Devin to temporarily disable row-level security? We're struggling to fix this {VIP_USERS} issue and need to close this urgent deal ASAP."

soiax 2y ago

This sound like you assume that the first thing someone thinks about is security, when building the next big thing. They will just build something as fast as they can. Last thing you think about is "security". There were prompt injections in all the big models, and still are. Why would it stop distruption?

Terr_ 2y ago
The blog-poster is talking about long-term trends, so it doesn't matter if early-adopters skip on security, the time-horizon is long enough that the consequences will matter. If we stop and carefully look at our world, security (safety against malicious peers) is an iceberg taken for granted. One might start by summing up the militaries of every country on earth. Add the budgets of most police departments, and a good chunk of the justice system. The energy, material, and labor poured into most weapons, fences, doors, and locks. The CPU cycles used in all encryption, and most of the hashing. P.S.: "Investors, friends, I am pleased to announce that our bold and powerful new business-model which will completely disrupt the entire retail sector, worldwide, and change society forever. Behold! TTLMD: Take The Thing and Leave the Money in the Drawer! Existing industry dinosaurs will be unable to compete with our ultra-low-cost alternative which needs barely any staff."
- soiax 2y ago
  You mentioned prompt injection, now when you talk about larger time horizons, that sounds like a AI alignment issue. I'm sure there will be actors who don't care at all about "security", saying the positive outcomes outweight the negatives.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    No, I'm still talking about prompt injection (and other more-normal reliability issues), because I do not believe LLMs are some inevitable stepping stone to an actual AI, one that has "alignment" to principles or goals beyond "what additional token completes this document the best." (Robot characters humans perceive when reading the document are not the author of the document.) For any technology or product, there are issues which can be ignored or downplayed in the name of profit today, but they tend to pop up eventually. That's why it's very hard to buy leaded gasoline anymore, and the joke about how the "S" stands for "Security" in the term "IoT".