4 ms·

Even if I assume you’re right, upward mobility and ease of starting a business are quite different things.

by BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago

throwpoaster 2y ago
Yes, they are different: the latter is a prerequisite of the former.
- coldtea 2y ago
  They're orthogonal. You can start and business and get downwards social mobility (lose your personal investment in a bussiness which fails). And inversely, you can get upwards mobility without starting a business (like with a promotion or getting a better job). Or rather, in the last decades, increasingly you can't. But traditionally, that was the way most people saw it. The "company man" going through the ranks, the immigrant who studies and gets a good job, etc. Building a business was always a thing for a minority. And since most new businesses fail anyway (and in most fields require capital, not to mention connections and lack, plus a specific set of skills like salesmanship and market savvy), "start a business" as a solution to social mobility at large, is a really bad idea. Starting a succesful business doesn't even necessarily translate to social mobility for others. In fact, it can happen even in a social mobility wise regressing economy. E.g. many people lose better paying jobs, and end up working on the cheap for some uber (pun intended) successful new business.
  - throwpoaster 2y ago
    This is only true if you consider absolute instead of expected value and cherry pick statistical outcomes. Successful business people start multiple businesses. Social class and economic class are different. Few successful welders go to the opera.
    - cowsandmilk 2y ago
      ????? What does any of what you wrote have to do with social mobility statistics? They don’t measure number of businesses or opera attendance when determining movement from bottom quintile of income to top quintile.
      - throwpoaster 2y ago
        You're talking about economic mobility specifically in terms of income. I am not.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      >Successful business people start multiple businesses. Which is irrelevant to the points discussed, no? Nobody claimed successful business people don't start multiple businesses. >Social class and economic class are different. Few successful welders go to the opera Social mobility in the context of this discussion is about getting better jobs and making more money. It's not about becoming an aristocrat or going to the Opera...
      - throwpoaster 2y ago
        > Nobody claimed successful business people don't start multiple businesses. Yes they did. Statistics were cited about business failure rates, which were one-shot rates. > Social mobility in the context of this discussion… Then you are talking about economic mobility, and the data cited in support of arguments about social mobility is a category error.
627467 2y ago
My thinking has been that society only pays attention to the mechanisms that favour upward movement while completely neglecting how to push down - from the top. Maybe because of naive concepts like "enlarging the cake for everyone" or - more likely - the top won't allow the protections they raised to be lowered.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >naive concepts like "enlarging the cake for everyone" Yeah, that has been working a treat (pun intended)...
- throwpoaster 2y ago
  How is “enlarging the cake” (usually the metaphor is “pie”) naïve?
  - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    If everyone’s slices get enlarged in proportion, the naive assumption, then it works as expected. If some people are clever enough to direct the enlargement towards their slices, then it doesn’t.
    - throwpoaster 2y ago
      The “growing the pie” metaphor has never been about growing all the pieces proportionately. It’s an illustration of how economic growth and Pareto optimization works: you can have a bigger slice (be richer) AND less of the pie (economy grew faster).
      - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
        When I hear it nowadays, especially from politicians, it sounds more like another way to say “rising tide lifts all ships.” I think it’s taken on a more jingoistic meaning colloquially.

Even if I assume you’re right, upward mobility and ease of starting a business are quite different things.

throwpoaster 2y ago

Yes, they are different: the latter is a prerequisite of the former.

coldtea 2y ago
They're orthogonal. You can start and business and get downwards social mobility (lose your personal investment in a bussiness which fails). And inversely, you can get upwards mobility without starting a business (like with a promotion or getting a better job). Or rather, in the last decades, increasingly you can't. But traditionally, that was the way most people saw it. The "company man" going through the ranks, the immigrant who studies and gets a good job, etc. Building a business was always a thing for a minority. And since most new businesses fail anyway (and in most fields require capital, not to mention connections and lack, plus a specific set of skills like salesmanship and market savvy), "start a business" as a solution to social mobility at large, is a really bad idea. Starting a succesful business doesn't even necessarily translate to social mobility for others. In fact, it can happen even in a social mobility wise regressing economy. E.g. many people lose better paying jobs, and end up working on the cheap for some uber (pun intended) successful new business.
- throwpoaster 2y ago
  This is only true if you consider absolute instead of expected value and cherry pick statistical outcomes. Successful business people start multiple businesses. Social class and economic class are different. Few successful welders go to the opera.
  - cowsandmilk 2y ago
    ????? What does any of what you wrote have to do with social mobility statistics? They don’t measure number of businesses or opera attendance when determining movement from bottom quintile of income to top quintile.
    - throwpoaster 2y ago
      You're talking about economic mobility specifically in terms of income. I am not.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >Successful business people start multiple businesses. Which is irrelevant to the points discussed, no? Nobody claimed successful business people don't start multiple businesses. >Social class and economic class are different. Few successful welders go to the opera Social mobility in the context of this discussion is about getting better jobs and making more money. It's not about becoming an aristocrat or going to the Opera...
    - throwpoaster 2y ago
      > Nobody claimed successful business people don't start multiple businesses. Yes they did. Statistics were cited about business failure rates, which were one-shot rates. > Social mobility in the context of this discussion… Then you are talking about economic mobility, and the data cited in support of arguments about social mobility is a category error.

627467 2y ago

My thinking has been that society only pays attention to the mechanisms that favour upward movement while completely neglecting how to push down - from the top. Maybe because of naive concepts like "enlarging the cake for everyone" or - more likely - the top won't allow the protections they raised to be lowered.

coldtea 2y ago
>naive concepts like "enlarging the cake for everyone" Yeah, that has been working a treat (pun intended)...
throwpoaster 2y ago
How is “enlarging the cake” (usually the metaphor is “pie”) naïve?
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  If everyone’s slices get enlarged in proportion, the naive assumption, then it works as expected. If some people are clever enough to direct the enlargement towards their slices, then it doesn’t.
  - throwpoaster 2y ago
    The “growing the pie” metaphor has never been about growing all the pieces proportionately. It’s an illustration of how economic growth and Pareto optimization works: you can have a bigger slice (be richer) AND less of the pie (economy grew faster).
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
      When I hear it nowadays, especially from politicians, it sounds more like another way to say “rising tide lifts all ships.” I think it’s taken on a more jingoistic meaning colloquially.