5 ms·

Looks like most of the improvement is only going to come when DLSS4 is in use and its generating most of the frame for Ray Tracing and then also generating 3 pr

Looks like most of the improvement is only going to come when DLSS4 is in use and its generating most of the frame for Ray Tracing and then also generating 3 predicted frames. When you use all that AI hardware then its maybe 2x, but I do wonder how much fundamental rasterisation + shaders performance gain there is in this generation in practice on the majority of actual games.

DimmieMan 2y ago
Yeah I’m not holding my breath if they aren’t advertising it. I’m expecting a minor bump that will look less impressive if you compare it to watts, these things are hungry. It’s hard to get excited when most of the gains will be limited to a few new showcase AAA releases and maybe an update to a couple of your favourites if your lucky.
- coffeebeqn 2y ago
  It feels like GPUs are now well beyond what game studios can put out. Consoles are stuck at something like RTX 2070 levels for some years still. I hope Nvidia puts out some budget cards for 50 series
  - DimmieMan 2y ago
    At the same time they’re still behind demand as most of the pretty advertising screenshots and frame rate bragging have been behind increasingly aggressive upscaling. On pc you can turn down the fancy settings at least but For consoles I wonder if we’re now in the smudgy upscale era like overdone bloom or everything being brown.
jroesch 2y ago
There was some solid commentary on the Ps5Pro tech talk stating core rendering is so well optimized much of the gains in the future will come from hardware process technology improvements not from radical architecture changes. It seems clear the future of rendering is likely to be a world where the gains come from things like dlss and less and free lunch savings due to easy optimizations.
- jayd16 2y ago
  Nanite style rendering still seems fairly green. That could take off and they decide to re-implement the software rasterization in hardware.
  - jms55 2y ago
    Raster is believe it or not, not quite the bottleneck. Raster speed definitely _matters_, but it's pretty fast even in software, and the bigger bottleneck is just overall complexity. Nanite is a big pipeline with a lot of different passes, which means lots of dispatches and memory accesses. Same with material shading/resolve after the visbuffer is rendered. EDIT: The _other_ huge issue with Nanite is overdraw with thin/aggregate geo that 2pass occlusion culling fails to handle well. That's why trees and such perform poorly in Nanite (compared to how good Nanite is for solid opaque geo). There's exciting recent research in this area though! https://mangosister.github.io/scene_agn_site https://mangosister.github.io/scene_agn_site.
WeylandYutani 2y ago
Like with how you cannot distinguish reality from CGI in movies DLSS will also become perfected over the years.
- perching_aix 2y ago
  I guess to everyone with working eyes this means DLSS will never be perfect. I agree.
yakaccount4 2y ago
3 Generated frames sounds like a lot of lag, probably a sickening amount for many games. The magic of "blackwell flip metering" isn't quite described yet.
- dagmx 2y ago
  It’s 3 extrapolated frames not interpolated. So would be reduced lag at the expense of greater pop-in. There’s also the new reflex 2 which uses reprojection based on mouse motion to generate frames that should also help, but likely has the same drawback.
  - perching_aix 2y ago
    > It’s 3 extrapolated frames not interpolated. Do you have a source for this? Doesn't sound like a very good idea. Nor do I think there's additional latency mind you, but not because it's not interpolation.
    - dagmx 2y ago
      https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/dlss4-multi-frame-generation-ai-innovations/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/dlss4-multi-frame-...
      - perching_aix 2y ago
        Could you please point out where on that page does it say anything about "extrapolation"? Searched for the (beginning of the) word directly and even gave all the text a skim, didn't catch anything of the sort.
        satvikpendem 2y ago
        The literal word doesn't have to be there in order to imply that it were extrapolation instead of interpolation. By your logic, there is no implication of interpolation versus extrapolation either. Nvidia simply won't use such terms, I believe.
kllrnohj 2y ago
> but I do wonder how much fundamental rasterisation + shaders performance gain there is in this generation in practice on the majority of actual games. likely 10-30% going off of both the cuda core specs (nearly unchanged gen/gen for everything but the 5090) as well as the 2 benchmarks Nvidia published that didn't use dlss4 multi frame gen - Far Cry 6 & A Plague Tale https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/50-series/rtx-5080/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/50-serie...
williamDafoe 2y ago
Given that Jensen completely omitted ANY MENTION of rasterization performance, I think we can safely assume it's probably WORSE in the 5000 series than the 4000 series, given the large price cuts applied to every card below then 5090 (NVidia was never happy charging $1000 for the 4080 super - AMD forced them to do it with the 7900xtx).

DimmieMan 2y ago

Yeah I’m not holding my breath if they aren’t advertising it. I’m expecting a minor bump that will look less impressive if you compare it to watts, these things are hungry. It’s hard to get excited when most of the gains will be limited to a few new showcase AAA releases and maybe an update to a couple of your favourites if your lucky.

coffeebeqn 2y ago
It feels like GPUs are now well beyond what game studios can put out. Consoles are stuck at something like RTX 2070 levels for some years still. I hope Nvidia puts out some budget cards for 50 series
- DimmieMan 2y ago
  At the same time they’re still behind demand as most of the pretty advertising screenshots and frame rate bragging have been behind increasingly aggressive upscaling. On pc you can turn down the fancy settings at least but For consoles I wonder if we’re now in the smudgy upscale era like overdone bloom or everything being brown.

jroesch 2y ago

There was some solid commentary on the Ps5Pro tech talk stating core rendering is so well optimized much of the gains in the future will come from hardware process technology improvements not from radical architecture changes. It seems clear the future of rendering is likely to be a world where the gains come from things like dlss and less and free lunch savings due to easy optimizations.

jayd16 2y ago
Nanite style rendering still seems fairly green. That could take off and they decide to re-implement the software rasterization in hardware.
- jms55 2y ago
  Raster is believe it or not, not quite the bottleneck. Raster speed definitely _matters_, but it's pretty fast even in software, and the bigger bottleneck is just overall complexity. Nanite is a big pipeline with a lot of different passes, which means lots of dispatches and memory accesses. Same with material shading/resolve after the visbuffer is rendered. EDIT: The _other_ huge issue with Nanite is overdraw with thin/aggregate geo that 2pass occlusion culling fails to handle well. That's why trees and such perform poorly in Nanite (compared to how good Nanite is for solid opaque geo). There's exciting recent research in this area though! https://mangosister.github.io/scene_agn_site https://mangosister.github.io/scene_agn_site.

WeylandYutani 2y ago

Like with how you cannot distinguish reality from CGI in movies DLSS will also become perfected over the years.

perching_aix 2y ago
I guess to everyone with working eyes this means DLSS will never be perfect. I agree.

yakaccount4 2y ago

3 Generated frames sounds like a lot of lag, probably a sickening amount for many games. The magic of "blackwell flip metering" isn't quite described yet.

dagmx 2y ago
It’s 3 extrapolated frames not interpolated. So would be reduced lag at the expense of greater pop-in. There’s also the new reflex 2 which uses reprojection based on mouse motion to generate frames that should also help, but likely has the same drawback.
- perching_aix 2y ago
  > It’s 3 extrapolated frames not interpolated. Do you have a source for this? Doesn't sound like a very good idea. Nor do I think there's additional latency mind you, but not because it's not interpolation.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/dlss4-multi-frame-generation-ai-innovations/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/dlss4-multi-frame-...
    - perching_aix 2y ago
      Could you please point out where on that page does it say anything about "extrapolation"? Searched for the (beginning of the) word directly and even gave all the text a skim, didn't catch anything of the sort.
      - satvikpendem 2y ago
        The literal word doesn't have to be there in order to imply that it were extrapolation instead of interpolation. By your logic, there is no implication of interpolation versus extrapolation either. Nvidia simply won't use such terms, I believe.

kllrnohj 2y ago

> but I do wonder how much fundamental rasterisation + shaders performance gain there is in this generation in practice on the majority of actual games. likely 10-30% going off of both the cuda core specs (nearly unchanged gen/gen for everything but the 5090) as well as the 2 benchmarks Nvidia published that didn't use dlss4 multi frame gen - Far Cry 6 & A Plague Tale https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/50-series/rtx-5080/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/graphics-cards/50-serie...

williamDafoe 2y ago

Given that Jensen completely omitted ANY MENTION of rasterization performance, I think we can safely assume it's probably WORSE in the 5000 series than the 4000 series, given the large price cuts applied to every card below then 5090 (NVidia was never happy charging $1000 for the 4080 super - AMD forced them to do it with the 7900xtx).