5 ms·

Well, if you make the road a luxury, less people will be /able/ to use it. It's nice to see someone is measuring just how much luxury is being created here a

Well, if you make the road a luxury, less people will be /able/ to use it. It's nice to see someone is measuring just how much luxury is being created here although I don't think these metrics are particularly useful outside of that goal.

mlinhares 2y ago
Driving and parking in NYC is already a luxury, there’s no poor person driving and parking there.
- brettgriffin 2y ago
  There are like 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    The GP is incorrect, but using the absolute number of housing developments in NYC is also misleading (since NYC has lots of middle-income housing developments too). On average, personal drivers on NYC roads skew towards wealthier and suburban, whereas city dwellers of all demographics broadly ride the subway and other mass transit. Congestion pricing will certainly represent a cost for poorer New Yorkers, but it will disproportionately be shouldered by wealthier demographics that are often on the road by choice (e.g. choosing to commute by car from Long Island because the city has inadvertently subsidized doing so with free parking.)
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > There are like 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas. They’re not paying this.
    - brettgriffin 2y ago
      On the contrary, they are! ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income!
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income In a private car? Where they aren’t eligible for the low-income discounts?
        brettgriffin 2y ago
        They are eligible for discounts after their 10th trip each month. I think people misinterpreted the point. Saying 'there are no poor people driving and parking in NYC' in an asinine statement when the data clear show that 30% of the drivers into congestion zone are lower income. Whether or not they should, are shouldering more or less of burden, and all of this other nonsense is extraneous.
  - scienceman 2y ago
    Yes, living in NYC = driving in NYC
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas The only people in the projects who have a car work in the trades. They’re largely not paying this charge and/or adding it as a line item to their customers’ bills. A car in Manhattan is an absolute luxury.
  - rangestransform 2y ago
    Giving NYCHA residents free parking spots was bananas
  - paxys 2y ago
    NYC != Manhattan congestion zone. Plenty of people in lower income groups (literally over a million) live and drive in NYC. A negligible number of them drive into Manhattan for work every day.
    - brettgriffin 2y ago
      > A negligible number of them drive into Manhattan for work every day. I think you're just making that up. Do you have a source?
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    How does "housing" relate to "cars"? They seem like completely separate things?
    - brettgriffin 2y ago
      People in houses can have cars. In fact, ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income. More specifically, lower income housing is often very far from subway stops. Often in outer boroughs!
- timewizard 2y ago
  So just exclude them from your civic thinking because you can't imagine them existing? You do realize there are special exemptions for this exact program for low income drivers? Perhaps you feel these shouldn't exist since it's already a luxury beyond them?
  - shipscode 2y ago
    The "anything I don't know doesn't exist" crowd is very strong when it comes to congestion pricing arguments. It's weird specifically that many of it's loudest proponents come from transit thinktanks from out west, etc. Very little actual support amongst New Yorkers for obvious reasons.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    It's not literally zero poor people, but it's very few: https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1d9sj6p/data_on_the_share_of_outer_borough_residents/?rdt=33038 https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1d9sj6p/data_on_the_sh...
tshaddox 2y ago
I don’t know if it’s fair to call this “making the road a luxury.” Congestion is a failure mode of a road system, not just more people getting to enjoy the road.

mlinhares 2y ago

Driving and parking in NYC is already a luxury, there’s no poor person driving and parking there.

brettgriffin 2y ago
There are like 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  The GP is incorrect, but using the absolute number of housing developments in NYC is also misleading (since NYC has lots of middle-income housing developments too). On average, personal drivers on NYC roads skew towards wealthier and suburban, whereas city dwellers of all demographics broadly ride the subway and other mass transit. Congestion pricing will certainly represent a cost for poorer New Yorkers, but it will disproportionately be shouldered by wealthier demographics that are often on the road by choice (e.g. choosing to commute by car from Long Island because the city has inadvertently subsidized doing so with free parking.)
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > There are like 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas. They’re not paying this.
  - brettgriffin 2y ago
    On the contrary, they are! ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income!
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income In a private car? Where they aren’t eligible for the low-income discounts?
      - brettgriffin 2y ago
        They are eligible for discounts after their 10th trip each month. I think people misinterpreted the point. Saying 'there are no poor people driving and parking in NYC' in an asinine statement when the data clear show that 30% of the drivers into congestion zone are lower income. Whether or not they should, are shouldering more or less of burden, and all of this other nonsense is extraneous.
- scienceman 2y ago
  Yes, living in NYC = driving in NYC
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > 400 housing developments in NYC for lower income folks. Saying that lower income folks don't drive in NYC is bananas The only people in the projects who have a car work in the trades. They’re largely not paying this charge and/or adding it as a line item to their customers’ bills. A car in Manhattan is an absolute luxury.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Giving NYCHA residents free parking spots was bananas
- paxys 2y ago
  NYC != Manhattan congestion zone. Plenty of people in lower income groups (literally over a million) live and drive in NYC. A negligible number of them drive into Manhattan for work every day.
  - brettgriffin 2y ago
    > A negligible number of them drive into Manhattan for work every day. I think you're just making that up. Do you have a source?
- alkonaut 2y ago
  How does "housing" relate to "cars"? They seem like completely separate things?
  - brettgriffin 2y ago
    People in houses can have cars. In fact, ~30% of people entering Manhattan a day are lower income. More specifically, lower income housing is often very far from subway stops. Often in outer boroughs!
timewizard 2y ago
So just exclude them from your civic thinking because you can't imagine them existing? You do realize there are special exemptions for this exact program for low income drivers? Perhaps you feel these shouldn't exist since it's already a luxury beyond them?
- shipscode 2y ago
  The "anything I don't know doesn't exist" crowd is very strong when it comes to congestion pricing arguments. It's weird specifically that many of it's loudest proponents come from transit thinktanks from out west, etc. Very little actual support amongst New Yorkers for obvious reasons.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  It's not literally zero poor people, but it's very few: https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1d9sj6p/data_on_the_share_of_outer_borough_residents/?rdt=33038 https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1d9sj6p/data_on_the_sh...

tshaddox 2y ago

I don’t know if it’s fair to call this “making the road a luxury.” Congestion is a failure mode of a road system, not just more people getting to enjoy the road.