5 ms·

I feel like this site has a bit of a bias when it comes to the USA. Most devs are highly compensated in the USA and can afford whatever. Being poor or sick suc

by avgDev 2y ago

I feel like this site has a bit of a bias when it comes to the USA. Most devs are highly compensated in the USA and can afford whatever. Being poor or sick sucks here.

anonporridge 2y ago
There is not and never has been any place on Earth where being poor and sick doesn't suck.
- busterarm 2y ago
  But at least in the US, if you can afford the treatment, you can get it.
  - tensor 2y ago
    But at least in first world countries, unlike the US, you WILL get treatment. Even if you are poor, like 95% of the US population.
    - busterarm 2y ago
      No that's the thing, you can't get the treatment if it doesn't exist. For the years that i was living in Ontario there were only 3 MRI machines across the entire province. The waiting period for that diagnostic MRI ranged from anywhere between 10 and 24 months. If doctors were even convinced you were worth getting it. You could die from something before you could even end up getting properly diagnosed with it. You might not have competent enough doctors in some countries for specialist treatment if you need it. A popular Canadian Youtuber who lives in Japan (which generally has great medical care) decided to relocate to the United States during the time they were undergoing their particular cancer treatment a couple of years ago. Japanese yakuza bosses pretty famously obtained their illegal organ transplants at UCLA Medical instead of in Japan... The US's system is certainly flawed but it guarantees that you can obtain the best care possible if you can afford it. That's much better than not being able to get the care even if you can afford it.
      - contagiousflow 2y ago
        Is that not two different tradeoffs? One is first come first serve and the other is purely if you have the resources at the time? The only people I see that praise the "guarantee if you can afford it", are indeed, the ones that can afford it.
        busterarm 2y ago
        Soviet bread lines were first come first serve too and I don't know any former Soviet state residents gushing about how great those times were. Those 3 MRI machines that I mentioned had to service 1/3 of the population of Canada at the time -- about 10 million people. Saying "oh that's just first come first serve" is totally missing the fact that the service level can be woefully inadequate. What's really crazy is that I live in a small city of about 100k people and there are about a dozen hospitals that I can choose from, first-class trauma centers, multiple renowned research centers (affiliated with three different universities). None of that is counting all of the urgent care and other facilities in the area. I have an order of magnitude more options for treatment than I did when living in New York City... The only way I could open myself up to more/better care options would be to move to Texas.
        oezi 2y ago
        Well the US spends 17% of GDP on health care and Canada only spends 12% while life expectancy in the US is at least 2 years less. You get superb care for the rich and mediocre care for the average guy and very little for the rest.
        tptacek 2y ago
        Life expectancy is, perhaps counterintuitively, not highly connected to health care. The major factors contributing to the gap between US and Canadian life expectancy are car accidents, homicides, and cardiovascular disease, and CVD differs wildly depending where you are in the country; there are states that lead the G7 in CVD outcomes, and others (like Mississippi and Alabama) that look like developing-world countries. None of this is to defend the US system in particular, which wildly overspends on the outcomes it achieves. But generally, when it comes to managing chronic and acute health conditions, those outcomes are very good.
- lbrito 2y ago
  There are many places where it sucks much, much less.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  I'll take Iceland or another Nordic social democracy for evidence that you're wrong there.
nostromo 2y ago
Most of Canada is pretty poor now. From the Economist: https://archive.is/UdixF/ec46ebf7fe812cd5e9432f45f68bd142e6c4a822.avif https://archive.is/UdixF/ec46ebf7fe812cd5e9432f45f68bd142e6c... Their housing is more expensive than the US, but taxes are higher and wages are lower. If Canada’s provinces were states, the populated ones would be poorer than the poorest US states, along with higher taxes and expensive housing. https://brilliantmaps.com/us-vs-canada-gdp-per-capita/ https://brilliantmaps.com/us-vs-canada-gdp-per-capita/ British Columbia is now poorer than Idaho, again, while being much more expensive. Ontario and Quebec and Canada as a whole are now poorer than West Virginia.
- wk_end 2y ago
  You say "now" as though it's ever not been the case. These comparisons do a poor job of taking into account cost-of-living and quality-of-life; it's simply not the case that you're better off in Montgomery than Toronto.
  - nostromo 2y ago
    The median wages for Toronto and Montgomery are actually quite similar: Toronto: $84k CAD ($58k USD) Montgomery: $55k The person living in Montgomery can easily afford a house and a middle-class life. Can the person in Toronto? Would I rather live in Toronto personally? Yes. But on a median salary, no way. https://www.city-data.com/income/income-Montgomery-Alabama.html https://www.city-data.com/income/income-Montgomery-Alabama.h... https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/9877-City-Planning-2021-Census-Backgrounder-Families-Hhlds-Marital-Status-Income.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/9877-City-...
    - wk_end 2y ago
      > The person living in Montgomery can easily afford a house and a middle-class life. Can the person in Toronto? Of course not. But a person living in New York City - making the much higher median household income of 75K USD - also can't afford a house or a middle-class life there. And yet across almost every metric New York is considered a better place to live with higher quality of life than Alabama.
mellosouls 2y ago
Possibly it does have that bias (which is to be expected considering its origins and target audience), but I've generally found a good faith and generous reception to pro-EU arguments (in counter to pro-USA comments) here as well.
cryptonector 2y ago
What you say is true. But do you have insight on how badly the Canadian poor have it relative to the American poor?
betaby 2y ago
> Being poor or sick sucks here. Can't say for the rest of Canada, but the healthcare is deplorable in Québec.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 3vidence 2y ago
  Don't worry it gets worse if you come to Ontario.

by avgDev 2y ago

I feel like this site has a bit of a bias when it comes to the USA. Most devs are highly compensated in the USA and can afford whatever. Being poor or sick sucks here.

anonporridge 2y ago

There is not and never has been any place on Earth where being poor and sick doesn't suck.

busterarm 2y ago
But at least in the US, if you can afford the treatment, you can get it.
- tensor 2y ago
  But at least in first world countries, unlike the US, you WILL get treatment. Even if you are poor, like 95% of the US population.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    No that's the thing, you can't get the treatment if it doesn't exist. For the years that i was living in Ontario there were only 3 MRI machines across the entire province. The waiting period for that diagnostic MRI ranged from anywhere between 10 and 24 months. If doctors were even convinced you were worth getting it. You could die from something before you could even end up getting properly diagnosed with it. You might not have competent enough doctors in some countries for specialist treatment if you need it. A popular Canadian Youtuber who lives in Japan (which generally has great medical care) decided to relocate to the United States during the time they were undergoing their particular cancer treatment a couple of years ago. Japanese yakuza bosses pretty famously obtained their illegal organ transplants at UCLA Medical instead of in Japan... The US's system is certainly flawed but it guarantees that you can obtain the best care possible if you can afford it. That's much better than not being able to get the care even if you can afford it.
    - contagiousflow 2y ago
      Is that not two different tradeoffs? One is first come first serve and the other is purely if you have the resources at the time? The only people I see that praise the "guarantee if you can afford it", are indeed, the ones that can afford it.
      - busterarm 2y ago
        Soviet bread lines were first come first serve too and I don't know any former Soviet state residents gushing about how great those times were. Those 3 MRI machines that I mentioned had to service 1/3 of the population of Canada at the time -- about 10 million people. Saying "oh that's just first come first serve" is totally missing the fact that the service level can be woefully inadequate. What's really crazy is that I live in a small city of about 100k people and there are about a dozen hospitals that I can choose from, first-class trauma centers, multiple renowned research centers (affiliated with three different universities). None of that is counting all of the urgent care and other facilities in the area. I have an order of magnitude more options for treatment than I did when living in New York City... The only way I could open myself up to more/better care options would be to move to Texas.
        oezi 2y ago
        Well the US spends 17% of GDP on health care and Canada only spends 12% while life expectancy in the US is at least 2 years less. You get superb care for the rich and mediocre care for the average guy and very little for the rest.
        tptacek 2y ago
        Life expectancy is, perhaps counterintuitively, not highly connected to health care. The major factors contributing to the gap between US and Canadian life expectancy are car accidents, homicides, and cardiovascular disease, and CVD differs wildly depending where you are in the country; there are states that lead the G7 in CVD outcomes, and others (like Mississippi and Alabama) that look like developing-world countries. None of this is to defend the US system in particular, which wildly overspends on the outcomes it achieves. But generally, when it comes to managing chronic and acute health conditions, those outcomes are very good.
lbrito 2y ago
There are many places where it sucks much, much less.
Der_Einzige 2y ago
I'll take Iceland or another Nordic social democracy for evidence that you're wrong there.

nostromo 2y ago

Most of Canada is pretty poor now. From the Economist: https://archive.is/UdixF/ec46ebf7fe812cd5e9432f45f68bd142e6c4a822.avif https://archive.is/UdixF/ec46ebf7fe812cd5e9432f45f68bd142e6c... Their housing is more expensive than the US, but taxes are higher and wages are lower. If Canada’s provinces were states, the populated ones would be poorer than the poorest US states, along with higher taxes and expensive housing. https://brilliantmaps.com/us-vs-canada-gdp-per-capita/ https://brilliantmaps.com/us-vs-canada-gdp-per-capita/ British Columbia is now poorer than Idaho, again, while being much more expensive. Ontario and Quebec and Canada as a whole are now poorer than West Virginia.

wk_end 2y ago
You say "now" as though it's ever not been the case. These comparisons do a poor job of taking into account cost-of-living and quality-of-life; it's simply not the case that you're better off in Montgomery than Toronto.
- nostromo 2y ago
  The median wages for Toronto and Montgomery are actually quite similar: Toronto: $84k CAD ($58k USD) Montgomery: $55k The person living in Montgomery can easily afford a house and a middle-class life. Can the person in Toronto? Would I rather live in Toronto personally? Yes. But on a median salary, no way. https://www.city-data.com/income/income-Montgomery-Alabama.html https://www.city-data.com/income/income-Montgomery-Alabama.h... https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/9877-City-Planning-2021-Census-Backgrounder-Families-Hhlds-Marital-Status-Income.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/9877-City-...
  - wk_end 2y ago
    > The person living in Montgomery can easily afford a house and a middle-class life. Can the person in Toronto? Of course not. But a person living in New York City - making the much higher median household income of 75K USD - also can't afford a house or a middle-class life there. And yet across almost every metric New York is considered a better place to live with higher quality of life than Alabama.

mellosouls 2y ago

Possibly it does have that bias (which is to be expected considering its origins and target audience), but I've generally found a good faith and generous reception to pro-EU arguments (in counter to pro-USA comments) here as well.

cryptonector 2y ago

What you say is true. But do you have insight on how badly the Canadian poor have it relative to the American poor?

betaby 2y ago

> Being poor or sick sucks here. Can't say for the rest of Canada, but the healthcare is deplorable in Québec.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
3vidence 2y ago
Don't worry it gets worse if you come to Ontario.