5 ms·

Is there an ELI5 that explains all of this from a-z? As an outsider I can't help but think people are being hyperbolic about it.

toasteros 2y ago
No, because Canada is not "ruined" or "damaged". The ONE dreadful thing the Liberals did was to renege on their promise of electoral reform. All Westminster-style Parliaments are done a disservice by using First-past-the-post. Trudeau campaigned on replacing the system with proportional representation, but incumbents in Westminster governments will never change the system that made them win. Most people turn to the Carbon Tax as an example, but the Carbon Tax is implemented in such a way that the average family receives MORE in quarterly rebates than what they PAY in Carbon taxes; it's only those with very high incomes who come close to losing money from the tax[1]. Then they'll point to the pandemic and tell you that the worst thing we've ever done as a nation is ask people to get vaccinated and wear a mask during a time where a (not actually) unprecedented virus was rampant. And somehow the virus is the incumbent's fault. After that you'll be told that healthcare is crumbling under Trudeau. Healthcare in Canada is a provincial responsibility, and the vast majority of provinces (eg Alberta) are run by right-wing governments looking to profit from private healthcare, so are employing a starve-the-beast strategy to make private healthcare look attractive. And then some particularly weird people will tell you he isn't tough enough on trans people. [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbo...
- Dakizhu 2y ago
  What’s dreadful is the rising cost of living and lack of affordable housing, which he failed to address. Moreover he doubled immigration during a time when the average Canadian was struggling to keep up with rising expenses. I’m pro-immigration but not at an unsustainable rate. Housing construction was not keeping up. Trudeau pushed beyond the limits of pro-immigration policy. If it was just conservative propaganda, the liberals wouldn’t be looking at a potentially historic election loss based on current polling. That said, I don’t think conservatives will fix anything.
  - toasteros 2y ago
    The immigration system we use today was set up by Harper. I'm an immigrant myself, having moved here on a Harper scheme, but under Trudeau. You are absolutely right that this wasn't addressed by the current government, but it is a policy of the previous one. The only reason he alone is being blamed is because he happened to be in charge for a very long time. It is likely to remain unaddressed satisfactorily under PP, too, since landlords benefit from immigration (especially high turnover immigration) and his primary interest is landlords and business owners. This is a symptom of FPTP-based Westminster governments. If we had a more equitable electoral system, the blame can be more appropriately distributed and - even better - the issues can be addressed more efficiently. Democracy NEEDS turnover to be effective.
    - DwnVoteHoneyPot 2y ago
      You're blaming Harper? Trudeau has been in office for almost a decade.
    - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
      > The only reason he alone is being blamed is because he happened to be in charge for a very long time. No, he was in charge when it got bad. A policy that doesn't harm the country one decade can harm the country the next. And it did, so the one who chose not to repeal it, and rather to make it much worse, gets blamed.
      - bryanlarsen 2y ago
        > the one who chose not to repeal it, and rather to make it much worse, gets blamed. Trudeau did cut immigration and student numbers substantively, and made expensive and substantive changes to improve housing availability. He can and should be blamed for doing so much too late, though.
  - adamc 2y ago
    Asking as a non-Canadian: What do you think he could have done that would fix these issues? If there is a clear path, why is it not politically attractive?
DustinBrett 2y ago
Yes they are, it isn't that big a deal, a new talking head will be in power for a while and eventually the blame for any problems will shift to him.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  I think it is a big deal. In many countries, you see a centre politician do some very normal thing that gets disingenuous outrage from the right solely with the intention (and effect) of dragging the Overton window over. From there, it is lather, rinse, repeat. The biggest reason for this is because capital has most of the power, most of the news outlets and capital is, of course, conservative. When things do swing the other way, it is muted. Can you say Biden is more left than Obama? Were Harris' policies to the left of Biden's? Is Starmer's labour party more left than Corbyn's? On the whole, no.
whoknowsidont 2y ago
Being "hyperbolic" is putting it generously.
lbrito 2y ago
Mostly partisan propaganda. The "Canada is broken" slogan is by no means organic; it is a carefully executed propaganda piece. The conservative leader is very good with punch lines and communication in general (and is maybe a bit too proud of it - e.g. he has a "Justinflation" plaque in his office; a term that he coined). There are problems and people want them fixed. That is always the case. In a short couple of years Canada will suddenly not be broken anymore, as everyone will forget the slogan. Then in a few more years the next opposition will decry how awful things are, etc. It is all very predictable and clear.
- 3vidence 2y ago
  I feel like its sentiment like this why the liberal party is heading for a historic collapse. "Everything is fine, just cancel disney+" Like young people are struggling... really badly and it seems like the government has done everything they can to make it worse. Most people I've met really don't Like Pierre Pollieve (myself included) but to say the current governments ineptness is propaganda is actually insane.
  - lbrito 2y ago
    Well, that wasn't my comment at all. I was specifically stating that the "Canada is broken" rhetoric is largely propaganda. That is very different from saying "everything is fine".
    - busterarm 2y ago
      What do you call broken then? Society is fundamentally not serving the prosperity of its younger generations. That is true in both the US and Canada. The wealth transfer upwards across generations is a breakdown of the social contract. Millenials and younger have a great point, even if they articulate it poorly, and are being completely ignored but can't be for much longer. These demographics are just now coming into their political agency...
      - lbrito 2y ago
bawolff 2y ago
My attempt at a neutral view: - housing costs have skyrocketed and econmic growth has been lackluster -- more importantly liberals have failed to articulate a convincing plan on this - conservatives have been wildly succesful in the polls,causing the liberal party to fragment internally, which just further makes them look like they dont know what they are doing. - trudeau has been in power a long time, people want change - across the globe incumbants are having problems. In terms of the grandparent, i don't really think there is much damage. I guess there is a high budget deficit. Not sure what that poster is referring to.

toasteros 2y ago

No, because Canada is not "ruined" or "damaged". The ONE dreadful thing the Liberals did was to renege on their promise of electoral reform. All Westminster-style Parliaments are done a disservice by using First-past-the-post. Trudeau campaigned on replacing the system with proportional representation, but incumbents in Westminster governments will never change the system that made them win. Most people turn to the Carbon Tax as an example, but the Carbon Tax is implemented in such a way that the average family receives MORE in quarterly rebates than what they PAY in Carbon taxes; it's only those with very high incomes who come close to losing money from the tax[1]. Then they'll point to the pandemic and tell you that the worst thing we've ever done as a nation is ask people to get vaccinated and wear a mask during a time where a (not actually) unprecedented virus was rampant. And somehow the virus is the incumbent's fault. After that you'll be told that healthcare is crumbling under Trudeau. Healthcare in Canada is a provincial responsibility, and the vast majority of provinces (eg Alberta) are run by right-wing governments looking to profit from private healthcare, so are employing a starve-the-beast strategy to make private healthcare look attractive. And then some particularly weird people will tell you he isn't tough enough on trans people. [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbo...

Dakizhu 2y ago
What’s dreadful is the rising cost of living and lack of affordable housing, which he failed to address. Moreover he doubled immigration during a time when the average Canadian was struggling to keep up with rising expenses. I’m pro-immigration but not at an unsustainable rate. Housing construction was not keeping up. Trudeau pushed beyond the limits of pro-immigration policy. If it was just conservative propaganda, the liberals wouldn’t be looking at a potentially historic election loss based on current polling. That said, I don’t think conservatives will fix anything.
- toasteros 2y ago
  The immigration system we use today was set up by Harper. I'm an immigrant myself, having moved here on a Harper scheme, but under Trudeau. You are absolutely right that this wasn't addressed by the current government, but it is a policy of the previous one. The only reason he alone is being blamed is because he happened to be in charge for a very long time. It is likely to remain unaddressed satisfactorily under PP, too, since landlords benefit from immigration (especially high turnover immigration) and his primary interest is landlords and business owners. This is a symptom of FPTP-based Westminster governments. If we had a more equitable electoral system, the blame can be more appropriately distributed and - even better - the issues can be addressed more efficiently. Democracy NEEDS turnover to be effective.
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 2y ago
    You're blaming Harper? Trudeau has been in office for almost a decade.
  - WorkerBee28474 2y ago
    > The only reason he alone is being blamed is because he happened to be in charge for a very long time. No, he was in charge when it got bad. A policy that doesn't harm the country one decade can harm the country the next. And it did, so the one who chose not to repeal it, and rather to make it much worse, gets blamed.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      > the one who chose not to repeal it, and rather to make it much worse, gets blamed. Trudeau did cut immigration and student numbers substantively, and made expensive and substantive changes to improve housing availability. He can and should be blamed for doing so much too late, though.
- adamc 2y ago
  Asking as a non-Canadian: What do you think he could have done that would fix these issues? If there is a clear path, why is it not politically attractive?

DustinBrett 2y ago

Yes they are, it isn't that big a deal, a new talking head will be in power for a while and eventually the blame for any problems will shift to him.

dfxm12 2y ago
I think it is a big deal. In many countries, you see a centre politician do some very normal thing that gets disingenuous outrage from the right solely with the intention (and effect) of dragging the Overton window over. From there, it is lather, rinse, repeat. The biggest reason for this is because capital has most of the power, most of the news outlets and capital is, of course, conservative. When things do swing the other way, it is muted. Can you say Biden is more left than Obama? Were Harris' policies to the left of Biden's? Is Starmer's labour party more left than Corbyn's? On the whole, no.

whoknowsidont 2y ago

Being "hyperbolic" is putting it generously.

lbrito 2y ago

Mostly partisan propaganda. The "Canada is broken" slogan is by no means organic; it is a carefully executed propaganda piece. The conservative leader is very good with punch lines and communication in general (and is maybe a bit too proud of it - e.g. he has a "Justinflation" plaque in his office; a term that he coined). There are problems and people want them fixed. That is always the case. In a short couple of years Canada will suddenly not be broken anymore, as everyone will forget the slogan. Then in a few more years the next opposition will decry how awful things are, etc. It is all very predictable and clear.

3vidence 2y ago
I feel like its sentiment like this why the liberal party is heading for a historic collapse. "Everything is fine, just cancel disney+" Like young people are struggling... really badly and it seems like the government has done everything they can to make it worse. Most people I've met really don't Like Pierre Pollieve (myself included) but to say the current governments ineptness is propaganda is actually insane.
- lbrito 2y ago
  Well, that wasn't my comment at all. I was specifically stating that the "Canada is broken" rhetoric is largely propaganda. That is very different from saying "everything is fine".
  - busterarm 2y ago
    What do you call broken then? Society is fundamentally not serving the prosperity of its younger generations. That is true in both the US and Canada. The wealth transfer upwards across generations is a breakdown of the social contract. Millenials and younger have a great point, even if they articulate it poorly, and are being completely ignored but can't be for much longer. These demographics are just now coming into their political agency...
    - lbrito 2y ago

bawolff 2y ago

My attempt at a neutral view: - housing costs have skyrocketed and econmic growth has been lackluster -- more importantly liberals have failed to articulate a convincing plan on this - conservatives have been wildly succesful in the polls,causing the liberal party to fragment internally, which just further makes them look like they dont know what they are doing. - trudeau has been in power a long time, people want change - across the globe incumbants are having problems. In terms of the grandparent, i don't really think there is much damage. I guess there is a high budget deficit. Not sure what that poster is referring to.