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Waiting for those people who post the "how do you use LLMS for X" questions on HN to come here and explain how this is a good thing.

fat_gpt 2y ago
[flagged]
zamadatix 2y ago
I see it more like calculators. Using a calculator isn't inherently good or bad in itself. If you're using a calculator to fake learning the intuitions and mechanics of division on your math homework then that's bad - regardless of how many other good use cases for calculators can be talked about in a separate context.
- croes 2y ago
  Calculators have a smaller CO2 foot print
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    It's an important discussion, as are many other tangents, but it's not really related to what the post was discussing as problematic.
    - croes 2y ago
      Because the post missed the point. It natural for humans to use tools to make tasks as easy as possible. Doesn’t mean the users are dumb or uneducated just lazy.
      - zamadatix 2y ago
        I dunno that I'd agree with that either (for this specific type of example at least). An adult wanting to find "how many hours are in 3.228 years?" when some task is looking for the answer aligns a bit with what you're saying. In this kind of scenario it has nothing with the adult not understanding how to do the conversion and everything to do with what the most accurate way to quickly complete the conversion itself is. I.e. the task is "produce an answer so we can use it". Whether that be done via calculator, spreadsheet, timespan conversion tool, or LLM (though the latter can be a bit of a poor choice for this type of task to be honest) the use of the tool is about best achieving the original goal accurately and quickly, not about sidestepping it. A student wanting to find "how many hours are there in 1 day and 7 hours" on their homework aligns very differently in my opinion. In this kind of scenario the goal was that the student become more educated on time conversions by practicing them. The actual answer provided is just a way to be able to provide feedback on how accurately that learning process went. Learning these kinds of basic things through experience allows them to tackle learning ever more complex things as they advance through their education. Faking gaining that education by using a tool to get an answer to write down isn't just the lazier way to do the conversion, it does leave them without the education the task was actually about. Not only that, learning to do such basic timespan conversions is going to be the lazy way for such tasks over anything but the briefest timespan anyways! If LLMs were being used as part of the learning process instead of a replacement of the learning process I'd hold different opinions of the post. I think tools (be it calculators or LLMs) can be extremely powerful learning aids... but extremely weak ones when used as learning replacements.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Here's a slightly different way they are analogized to calculators, along with some dissenting views. (Saw it later, remembered this comment.) https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/2/calculator-for-words/ https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/2/calculator-for-words/
- fivelorn 2y ago
  Except calculators actually do something useful and return the correct results, a crucial departure from the functionality of LLMs.
floren 2y ago
[flagged]
redcobra762 2y ago
Would you be upset if in the 70s you found out your sister was using a calculator to check her math homework?
- stonogo 2y ago
  Calculators are deterministic. I'd be super upset if my sister was using a calculator that can hallucinate and trusting the output.
- lewhoo 2y ago
  > a calculator to check her math homework Change 'check' to 'do' and we'll have a discussion.
- GeoAtreides 2y ago
  ah yes, "something in the past happened so then this thing in the present is ok" argument now mention Socrates and his dislike of writing, or maybe how people were worried about television, video games... meanwhile, a 12 years old somewhere is mechanically copying and pasting her math homework while understanding and learning absolutely nothing no, wait, it's not just one 12 years old, it's probably all of them
- SomeDaysBe 2y ago
  If she was using it to check 24 + 7, then yes.
- id34 2y ago
  There difference is between "check" and "do" - verifying your work is a helpful use of feedback, not being able to multiply single digits without a calculator is a failed skill without a crutch to rely on.
- mihaaly 2y ago
  Calculators don't do homework. Neither slide rules do.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- 2y ago

fat_gpt 2y ago

[flagged]

zamadatix 2y ago

I see it more like calculators. Using a calculator isn't inherently good or bad in itself. If you're using a calculator to fake learning the intuitions and mechanics of division on your math homework then that's bad - regardless of how many other good use cases for calculators can be talked about in a separate context.

croes 2y ago
Calculators have a smaller CO2 foot print
- zamadatix 2y ago
  It's an important discussion, as are many other tangents, but it's not really related to what the post was discussing as problematic.
  - croes 2y ago
    Because the post missed the point. It natural for humans to use tools to make tasks as easy as possible. Doesn’t mean the users are dumb or uneducated just lazy.
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      I dunno that I'd agree with that either (for this specific type of example at least). An adult wanting to find "how many hours are in 3.228 years?" when some task is looking for the answer aligns a bit with what you're saying. In this kind of scenario it has nothing with the adult not understanding how to do the conversion and everything to do with what the most accurate way to quickly complete the conversion itself is. I.e. the task is "produce an answer so we can use it". Whether that be done via calculator, spreadsheet, timespan conversion tool, or LLM (though the latter can be a bit of a poor choice for this type of task to be honest) the use of the tool is about best achieving the original goal accurately and quickly, not about sidestepping it. A student wanting to find "how many hours are there in 1 day and 7 hours" on their homework aligns very differently in my opinion. In this kind of scenario the goal was that the student become more educated on time conversions by practicing them. The actual answer provided is just a way to be able to provide feedback on how accurately that learning process went. Learning these kinds of basic things through experience allows them to tackle learning ever more complex things as they advance through their education. Faking gaining that education by using a tool to get an answer to write down isn't just the lazier way to do the conversion, it does leave them without the education the task was actually about. Not only that, learning to do such basic timespan conversions is going to be the lazy way for such tasks over anything but the briefest timespan anyways! If LLMs were being used as part of the learning process instead of a replacement of the learning process I'd hold different opinions of the post. I think tools (be it calculators or LLMs) can be extremely powerful learning aids... but extremely weak ones when used as learning replacements.
Terr_ 2y ago
Here's a slightly different way they are analogized to calculators, along with some dissenting views. (Saw it later, remembered this comment.) https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/2/calculator-for-words/ https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/2/calculator-for-words/
fivelorn 2y ago
Except calculators actually do something useful and return the correct results, a crucial departure from the functionality of LLMs.

floren 2y ago

[flagged]

redcobra762 2y ago

Would you be upset if in the 70s you found out your sister was using a calculator to check her math homework?

stonogo 2y ago
Calculators are deterministic. I'd be super upset if my sister was using a calculator that can hallucinate and trusting the output.
lewhoo 2y ago
> a calculator to check her math homework Change 'check' to 'do' and we'll have a discussion.
GeoAtreides 2y ago
ah yes, "something in the past happened so then this thing in the present is ok" argument now mention Socrates and his dislike of writing, or maybe how people were worried about television, video games... meanwhile, a 12 years old somewhere is mechanically copying and pasting her math homework while understanding and learning absolutely nothing no, wait, it's not just one 12 years old, it's probably all of them
SomeDaysBe 2y ago
If she was using it to check 24 + 7, then yes.
id34 2y ago
There difference is between "check" and "do" - verifying your work is a helpful use of feedback, not being able to multiply single digits without a calculator is a failed skill without a crutch to rely on.
mihaaly 2y ago
Calculators don't do homework. Neither slide rules do.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
2y ago