5 ms·

As someone with no knowledge of the topic, why was electrical reform needed? Wouldn't one assume that either party motivated to do it while in power would be do

by beaned 2y ago

As someone with no knowledge of the topic, why was electrical reform needed? Wouldn't one assume that either party motivated to do it while in power would be doing it with the goal of positively affecting the outcome for their party in the future? It would seem weird for a candidate to reform how voting works knowing it could negatively affect their side, right?

thesh4d0w 2y ago
We have two left parties that votes are split across, and a single right party. This means the conservative party often ends up getting more power since they're "first past the post" even though the majority of the population may not agree with them.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  So? "The rules need to be changed because the wrong people keep winning" sounds very suspicious to me. If the situation is as you describe, what really needs to change is that the two left parties need to merge, or one of them needs to become such a marginal player that it doesn't matter. If the leaders of those parties can't or won't do that, well, then you get the situation that you have.
  - dblohm7 2y ago
    > So? "The rules need to be changed because the wrong people keep winning" sounds very suspicious to me. That's not what they're saying. In Canada, we can easily end up with parliamentary majorities for parties that have less than 50% of the popular vote. Sometimes substantially less.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      No, I got that part. That's true in any first-past-the-post system, and especially true in ones with more than two major parties. (The solution to that would be proportional representation rather than first-past-the-post.) But the complaint seemed to be, not that it kept happening, but that it kept favoring the Conservatives. So, on the one hand, the fact that it keeps favoring one party is an issue. On the other hand, the way the complaint was made makes it sound like it's not coming from a position of objectivity.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Some believe that it’s better if representative democracies represent their constituents. Newer voting technology that permits a greater alignment of representative distribution with voter distribution is preferable to those people. Personally, I find it galling that the massive Californian population of Republicans and Texan population of Democrats frequently go unrepresented. You seem to believe in the primacy of FPTP voting in itself. That’s the difference.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      > You seem to believe in the primacy of FPTP voting in itself. That’s the difference. You seem to be reading things into my words that I didn't say. I get that more representative is good. I get that FPTP isn't that. But what I said is, when their complaint is that the Conservatives keep winning, that makes their whole argument suspect.
      - renewiltord 2y ago
        That seems a misunderstanding of their argument. I suggest using an LLM, quoting the comment, and discussing with it till your comprehension matches that of the machine. They’re usually pretty good at it, and it appears better than you in this instance.
- jyscao 2y ago
  > and a single right party No longer true. Canada now also has the PPC - the People's Part of Canada (see: https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/ https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/). > even though the majority of the population may not agree with them Well that certainly won't be true for the upcoming election.
- swat535 2y ago
  I beg to differ, the polls say otherwise regarding who the population wants and more importantly, the unhealthy coalition of NDP / Liberals have been preventing the parliament from functioning, we would have had an election by now had NDP stopped propping the Liberal party by preventing the non confidence vote.
dylan604 2y ago
The GOP has used the party in power manipulation to keep themselves in power very effectively at the state level with gerrymandering.
Jalad 2y ago
> why was electrical reform needed? Canada uses a first past the post system for federal elections, which usually boils down to a two party state equilibrium > It would seem weird for a candidate to reform how voting works knowing it could negatively affect their side, right? Possibly, but I want to believe that politicians can put country over party (I haven't found a huge amount of evidence for this though unfortunately)
- busterarm 2y ago
  > Canada uses a first past the post system for federal elections, which usually boils down to a two party state equilibrium To be fair, that two-party equilibrium is the thing that keeps every minor political crisis from causing no-confidence votes and failed governments because all of the special interests involved break the coalition. Other Parliamentary governments that don't have this kind of equilibrium end up with minor political parties holding massively outsized influence and concessions just to keep them in the coalition. See Denmark (this is pretty much the subject of every season of Borgen).
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    The only time a Finnish government coalition has failed due to a loss of confidence was in the early 80s. Prime ministers occasionally change mid-term and minor parties sometimes leave the coalition, but the coalition always continues until the next regular elections. And the reason for this stability is trivial. If a party leaves a coalition and the coalition loses parliamentary majority, that party is effectively a major party. Potential prime ministers are rarely stupid enough or desperate enough to give small parties that kind of power. Instead, they prefer making the coalition a bit wider by adding another small party or two. We also have the Swedish People's Party, which specializes as a reliable coalition partner. They are willing to collaborate with pretty much anyone. As long the coalition agrees to uphold the rights of the Swedish-speaking minority, they will give it another 4-5% support without too much drama.
    - busterarm 2y ago
      Finland is also just about the most ethnically, religiously, demographically and linguistically homogenous nation you could pick from. That affords you the social cohesion to avoid these things. Much moreso than Denmark and orders of magntitude moreso than Canada. You just generally agree with each other more, in your own socially-distant, Finnish way. Kippis! Also the comments about the Swedish-speaking minority interest are a bit weird in historical context -- Swedish used to be the dominant language in Finland until the Swedish-speaking nobility decided to promote the Finnish language and identity. It isn't exactly weird that their remnants today would be able to promote their own interests...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mardifoufs 2y ago
It was one of his core promises back in 2015. He almost instantly broke it when he got elected, by saying it won't happen.
sdwr 2y ago
In a functional organization, personal interests are balanced against ideals, decorum, and the interests of the group.
Tiktaalik 2y ago
Canada has a FPTP system but multiple parties. This means that it becomes possible to form a distorted, outsized government (even a majority government!) with a remarkably little amount of the popular vote. In 2019 the Liberals won the election and took 46% of the seats with a mere 33% of the vote. That is a remarkable distortion. The argument as to why electoral reform is needed is because of this distortion and the view that the FPTP system itself is resulting in peculiar outcomes that do not reflect the actual wishes of the voting public.

by beaned 2y ago

thesh4d0w 2y ago

We have two left parties that votes are split across, and a single right party. This means the conservative party often ends up getting more power since they're "first past the post" even though the majority of the population may not agree with them.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
So? "The rules need to be changed because the wrong people keep winning" sounds very suspicious to me. If the situation is as you describe, what really needs to change is that the two left parties need to merge, or one of them needs to become such a marginal player that it doesn't matter. If the leaders of those parties can't or won't do that, well, then you get the situation that you have.
- dblohm7 2y ago
  > So? "The rules need to be changed because the wrong people keep winning" sounds very suspicious to me. That's not what they're saying. In Canada, we can easily end up with parliamentary majorities for parties that have less than 50% of the popular vote. Sometimes substantially less.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    No, I got that part. That's true in any first-past-the-post system, and especially true in ones with more than two major parties. (The solution to that would be proportional representation rather than first-past-the-post.) But the complaint seemed to be, not that it kept happening, but that it kept favoring the Conservatives. So, on the one hand, the fact that it keeps favoring one party is an issue. On the other hand, the way the complaint was made makes it sound like it's not coming from a position of objectivity.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Some believe that it’s better if representative democracies represent their constituents. Newer voting technology that permits a greater alignment of representative distribution with voter distribution is preferable to those people. Personally, I find it galling that the massive Californian population of Republicans and Texan population of Democrats frequently go unrepresented. You seem to believe in the primacy of FPTP voting in itself. That’s the difference.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    > You seem to believe in the primacy of FPTP voting in itself. That’s the difference. You seem to be reading things into my words that I didn't say. I get that more representative is good. I get that FPTP isn't that. But what I said is, when their complaint is that the Conservatives keep winning, that makes their whole argument suspect.
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      That seems a misunderstanding of their argument. I suggest using an LLM, quoting the comment, and discussing with it till your comprehension matches that of the machine. They’re usually pretty good at it, and it appears better than you in this instance.
jyscao 2y ago
> and a single right party No longer true. Canada now also has the PPC - the People's Part of Canada (see: https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/ https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/). > even though the majority of the population may not agree with them Well that certainly won't be true for the upcoming election.
swat535 2y ago
I beg to differ, the polls say otherwise regarding who the population wants and more importantly, the unhealthy coalition of NDP / Liberals have been preventing the parliament from functioning, we would have had an election by now had NDP stopped propping the Liberal party by preventing the non confidence vote.

dylan604 2y ago

The GOP has used the party in power manipulation to keep themselves in power very effectively at the state level with gerrymandering.

Jalad 2y ago

> why was electrical reform needed? Canada uses a first past the post system for federal elections, which usually boils down to a two party state equilibrium > It would seem weird for a candidate to reform how voting works knowing it could negatively affect their side, right? Possibly, but I want to believe that politicians can put country over party (I haven't found a huge amount of evidence for this though unfortunately)

busterarm 2y ago
> Canada uses a first past the post system for federal elections, which usually boils down to a two party state equilibrium To be fair, that two-party equilibrium is the thing that keeps every minor political crisis from causing no-confidence votes and failed governments because all of the special interests involved break the coalition. Other Parliamentary governments that don't have this kind of equilibrium end up with minor political parties holding massively outsized influence and concessions just to keep them in the coalition. See Denmark (this is pretty much the subject of every season of Borgen).
- jltsiren 2y ago
  The only time a Finnish government coalition has failed due to a loss of confidence was in the early 80s. Prime ministers occasionally change mid-term and minor parties sometimes leave the coalition, but the coalition always continues until the next regular elections. And the reason for this stability is trivial. If a party leaves a coalition and the coalition loses parliamentary majority, that party is effectively a major party. Potential prime ministers are rarely stupid enough or desperate enough to give small parties that kind of power. Instead, they prefer making the coalition a bit wider by adding another small party or two. We also have the Swedish People's Party, which specializes as a reliable coalition partner. They are willing to collaborate with pretty much anyone. As long the coalition agrees to uphold the rights of the Swedish-speaking minority, they will give it another 4-5% support without too much drama.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    Finland is also just about the most ethnically, religiously, demographically and linguistically homogenous nation you could pick from. That affords you the social cohesion to avoid these things. Much moreso than Denmark and orders of magntitude moreso than Canada. You just generally agree with each other more, in your own socially-distant, Finnish way. Kippis! Also the comments about the Swedish-speaking minority interest are a bit weird in historical context -- Swedish used to be the dominant language in Finland until the Swedish-speaking nobility decided to promote the Finnish language and identity. It isn't exactly weird that their remnants today would be able to promote their own interests...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mardifoufs 2y ago

It was one of his core promises back in 2015. He almost instantly broke it when he got elected, by saying it won't happen.

sdwr 2y ago

In a functional organization, personal interests are balanced against ideals, decorum, and the interests of the group.

Tiktaalik 2y ago

Canada has a FPTP system but multiple parties. This means that it becomes possible to form a distorted, outsized government (even a majority government!) with a remarkably little amount of the popular vote. In 2019 the Liberals won the election and took 46% of the seats with a mere 33% of the vote. That is a remarkable distortion. The argument as to why electoral reform is needed is because of this distortion and the view that the FPTP system itself is resulting in peculiar outcomes that do not reflect the actual wishes of the voting public.