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> I use cash because it contributes to the local neighborhood economy more than not using cash. The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you don’t use ca

> I use cash because it contributes to the local neighborhood economy more than not using cash. The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you don’t use cash. Cash handling also has cost - theft both from employees and outside actors - too. > I use cash because I do not want to risk a banking app being broken by a non-banking app. When has Apple Pay or Google pay ever been “broken”? Do you not use a bank at all or not use any banking apps or websites? > I use cash because not using cash charges extra (often-hidden) fees while using cash often comes with extra discounts. There are very few places in the US that up charge for credit card transactions. Mostly gas stations and then mostly only for gas. > I use cash because the modern economy is a give-business-money-for-nothing-because-fuck-you economy and I don't want to contribute to that. You don’t think the merchant network does anything? Even if you are opposed to credit card transaction fees are you also opposed to debit transaction fees which are much lower and where there is a legsl cap?

coldpie 2y ago
> There are very few places in the US that up charge for credit card transactions I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities at small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for cash. > The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you don’t use cash. Cash handling also has cost - theft both from employees and outside actors - too. I've asked quite a few merchants that take both whether they have a preference for cash vs card. Most (~90%) say they don't care either way. The remainder all say they prefer cash. I've never had one reply they prefer a card to cash. Also, when making large (like four- or five-figure) transactions with people like home contractors, they all request payment via personal check, to avoid the card fees eating a huge chunk of the transaction. I also dislike the idea of all transactions being trackable/identifiable. I think there's value in being able to perform anonymous transactions.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  > I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities at small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for cash. For reference, I have a card that gives me 3 points back for all restaurants and another card that gives me 2 points back for all other purchases. Doing the simplest thing possible and transferring those points to Delta for flights nets me 1.3% for each point meaning I will at least get 2.6% back on general purchases or almost 4% back worse case on restaurants. If they have to accept cash or credit cards, yes they will prefer cash. But there are reasons that some places don’t accept cash at all. It’s because of employee theft. But it’s harder to steal cash at restaurants and bars because everyone gets receipts. The usual theft from bars come from bartenders pouring more expensive liquors and charging for cheaper liquor and then accepting larger tips.
  - marxisttemp 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-cards-make-you-spend-more https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-cards... People spend more money and tip higher when they use credit cards than cash….
      - inetknght 2y ago
        > People spend more money and tip higher when they use credit cards than cash…. And you think that's a good thing?
        scarface_74 2y ago
        I’m saying it doesn’t “hurt” the merchant
        inetknght 2y ago
        Indeed? I'm saying it likely does hurt the customer and in ways that the customer often doesn't realize. That doesn't make it bad per se, but it would be great if more people would realize and address the risks involved.
        scarface_74 2y ago
        > Those credit card perks are directly subsidized by the handling fees they charge your local businesses The “local business” more than makes up for credit card fees via increased spending. They know their margins and the minimum amount needed to make a credit card transaction worthwhile. That’s why many have minimum transaction amount to use a credit card.
aftbit 2y ago
I use cash because it doesn't require batteries, and because my cell phone won't let me use Google Pay, as it's running a custom OS (before that, was rooted) so I'm obviously untrustworthy. I do use a credit card pretty often too, but I always have a little cash on me and I use it at least weekly.
- trey-jones 2y ago
  To pile on the battery issue, we had some very severe storms in my area that took down power for days and internet for weeks. Credit card processing was not possible for gas stations during that time period, but the pumps worked when the power came back on. The only way you could fill up at those stations was with cash. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen, and perhaps more importantly could be made to happen. Not that cash is necessarily a lot better. I can't remember what sci-fi character made the observation that "all currency is mutual delusion", but I observe the truth of that. I've thought it was in Hyperion, but have not been able to find it.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We had an EV and charged at home. Are you going to get an EV too? Yes we keep some cash because we travel a lot and use cash for tips.
    - inetknght 2y ago
      > And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We had an EV and charged at home. Having an electric vehicle is NOT the benefit you think it is here. You could just as easily have an internal combustion engine and spare fuel tanks. My car holds about 12 gallons of fuel and I have three 5-gallon fuel jugs ready to do. I use the fuel jugs for my lawnmower to keep the fuel fresh, but the jugs serve just as well during an emergency. And the benefit over an electric vehicle: I can put the fuel jugs into the tank or the trunk and just go. If your EV is drained... good luck getting it charged when you're given an evacuation order. Places running out of gas? That's a consequence of poor planning or a just-in-time economy (take your pick) on the gas stations, and a consequence of poor planning or a just-in-time economy on the people buying fuel from gas stations when they should have fueled up before the emergency. Not everyone can buy fuel jugs. Good luck storing fuel jugs anywhere safe when you're living in an urban environment. It's the same for EV batteries too.
inetknght 2y ago
> When has Apple Pay or Google pay ever been “broken”? Dunno, don't care. I'm not going to mix my banking stuff with my non-banking stuff. Not being "broken" publicly doesn't mean it's bug-free. You and I both know that Apple Pay and Google Pay are both written with software and enabled via hardware. That doesn't mean it's bug-free. That doesn't mean it can't be broken. Why risk it? It's not worth losing your livelihood over a very slight convenience. Would you put a needle into your eye if everyone around you, except for your doctor, told you that you'll see better afterward? No of course not, you're not stupid. Would you put a needle into your eye if your doctor told you to? No, of course not, you are not trained for it. So why would you install a banking app which grants access to your finances, and which cannot be proven to be secure against other apps running on the same device? Of course that's your choice, and I choose to not put that risk in my life. At least with cash or a debit/credit card, the risk is physically separated. > Do you not use a bank at all or not use any banking apps or websites? I wish that were the case. Alas, banks are practically a requirement even for local communities. You'd be stupid to put all of your cash under your mattress or in your home. You'd be stupid to walk around all day every day with a significant chunk of cash/change. Keep excess cash in the bank or investments keeps it separated from the risk that your house is broken into or burns down, and separated from the risk of being mugged. Banks are regulated (in all countries I can think of) and federally insured in the US (I dunno about other countries' monetary insurances or policies). So if it's a separation of risk, then why undo all of that by walking around with all of your money in your phone? It's exactly the same problem but now in a brand-new electronic domain with little or no regulation at all. That's a stupid thing to do. So no, I do not use banking apps. Just as I don't put work shit on my phone, I also do not put banking shit on my phone. My phone is where non-technical people talk to me, and is high risk for incoming malware. Your employer doesn't want that, your bank doesn't want that. For the same reasons, I only open banking websites on a dedicated computer for the same reason. > There are very few places in the US that up charge for credit card transactions You already stated that "the merchant gets all except for a 2% fee". So (unless you want to argue that places take the fee at a loss) all places charge it, but many simply don't include that charge as a line-item on your receipt. It is therefore "often-hidden", which you quoted but ignored. > You don’t think the merchant network does anything? I didn't say that at all. The merchant network does help prevent fraud and I use my CC for items that I worry could be fraudulent. I simply don't buy from Amazon because fraudulent activity is too high and it's not worth the hassle. But on the other hand: medical costs, computers, digital services, and even local vendors can be shady as fuck. But there are plenty of places where you can build trust with your community. Your grocery store with perishable foods is in my experience much less likely to defraud you, specifically because you're able to look at and inspect items before purchase. > are you also opposed to debit transaction fees which are much lower and where there is a legsl cap? That's twice now that you're putting words in my message that weren't there. Maybe you should read my message again in a few hours after your next meal. You're stuck thinking about fees. No, the fees themselves aren't what I'm worried about. I'm worried about shit companies like Amazon who have no moral qualms about mixing fraudulent items with authentic items. I'm hateful of companies like Google who have absolutely no interest in providing help or support to the real people that they harm. I'm resentful of "businesses" who steal your data and get you addicted to stupid shit, just so they can make a profit off of you. I'm distrustful of any "business" who only takes sales online, sends spam, steals or abuses data about you, uses dark patterns for "engagement" to get people to do what the business wants them to... It's not all doom and gloom. I use a lot of cash, but I don't use exclusively cash. I have debit cards and credit cards and they definitely serve their purposes too. But cash is way more useful than some people on Hacker News want you to believe: if someone is talking against cash then there's a high likelihood that person either has an agenda that won't benefit you or is naive enough to advance someone else's agenda that won't benefit you.

coldpie 2y ago

> There are very few places in the US that up charge for credit card transactions I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities at small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for cash. > The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you don’t use cash. Cash handling also has cost - theft both from employees and outside actors - too. I've asked quite a few merchants that take both whether they have a preference for cash vs card. Most (~90%) say they don't care either way. The remainder all say they prefer cash. I've never had one reply they prefer a card to cash. Also, when making large (like four- or five-figure) transactions with people like home contractors, they all request payment via personal check, to avoid the card fees eating a huge chunk of the transaction. I also dislike the idea of all transactions being trackable/identifiable. I think there's value in being able to perform anonymous transactions.

scarface_74 2y ago
> I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities at small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for cash. For reference, I have a card that gives me 3 points back for all restaurants and another card that gives me 2 points back for all other purchases. Doing the simplest thing possible and transferring those points to Delta for flights nets me 1.3% for each point meaning I will at least get 2.6% back on general purchases or almost 4% back worse case on restaurants. If they have to accept cash or credit cards, yes they will prefer cash. But there are reasons that some places don’t accept cash at all. It’s because of employee theft. But it’s harder to steal cash at restaurants and bars because everyone gets receipts. The usual theft from bars come from bartenders pouring more expensive liquors and charging for cheaper liquor and then accepting larger tips.
- marxisttemp 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-cards-make-you-spend-more https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-cards... People spend more money and tip higher when they use credit cards than cash….
    - inetknght 2y ago
      > People spend more money and tip higher when they use credit cards than cash…. And you think that's a good thing?
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        I’m saying it doesn’t “hurt” the merchant
        inetknght 2y ago
        Indeed? I'm saying it likely does hurt the customer and in ways that the customer often doesn't realize. That doesn't make it bad per se, but it would be great if more people would realize and address the risks involved.
        scarface_74 2y ago
        > Those credit card perks are directly subsidized by the handling fees they charge your local businesses The “local business” more than makes up for credit card fees via increased spending. They know their margins and the minimum amount needed to make a credit card transaction worthwhile. That’s why many have minimum transaction amount to use a credit card.

aftbit 2y ago

I use cash because it doesn't require batteries, and because my cell phone won't let me use Google Pay, as it's running a custom OS (before that, was rooted) so I'm obviously untrustworthy. I do use a credit card pretty often too, but I always have a little cash on me and I use it at least weekly.

trey-jones 2y ago
To pile on the battery issue, we had some very severe storms in my area that took down power for days and internet for weeks. Credit card processing was not possible for gas stations during that time period, but the pumps worked when the power came back on. The only way you could fill up at those stations was with cash. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen, and perhaps more importantly could be made to happen. Not that cash is necessarily a lot better. I can't remember what sci-fi character made the observation that "all currency is mutual delusion", but I observe the truth of that. I've thought it was in Hyperion, but have not been able to find it.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We had an EV and charged at home. Are you going to get an EV too? Yes we keep some cash because we travel a lot and use cash for tips.
  - inetknght 2y ago
    > And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We had an EV and charged at home. Having an electric vehicle is NOT the benefit you think it is here. You could just as easily have an internal combustion engine and spare fuel tanks. My car holds about 12 gallons of fuel and I have three 5-gallon fuel jugs ready to do. I use the fuel jugs for my lawnmower to keep the fuel fresh, but the jugs serve just as well during an emergency. And the benefit over an electric vehicle: I can put the fuel jugs into the tank or the trunk and just go. If your EV is drained... good luck getting it charged when you're given an evacuation order. Places running out of gas? That's a consequence of poor planning or a just-in-time economy (take your pick) on the gas stations, and a consequence of poor planning or a just-in-time economy on the people buying fuel from gas stations when they should have fueled up before the emergency. Not everyone can buy fuel jugs. Good luck storing fuel jugs anywhere safe when you're living in an urban environment. It's the same for EV batteries too.

inetknght 2y ago

> When has Apple Pay or Google pay ever been “broken”? Dunno, don't care. I'm not going to mix my banking stuff with my non-banking stuff. Not being "broken" publicly doesn't mean it's bug-free. You and I both know that Apple Pay and Google Pay are both written with software and enabled via hardware. That doesn't mean it's bug-free. That doesn't mean it can't be broken. Why risk it? It's not worth losing your livelihood over a very slight convenience. Would you put a needle into your eye if everyone around you, except for your doctor, told you that you'll see better afterward? No of course not, you're not stupid. Would you put a needle into your eye if your doctor told you to? No, of course not, you are not trained for it. So why would you install a banking app which grants access to your finances, and which cannot be proven to be secure against other apps running on the same device? Of course that's your choice, and I choose to not put that risk in my life. At least with cash or a debit/credit card, the risk is physically separated. > Do you not use a bank at all or not use any banking apps or websites? I wish that were the case. Alas, banks are practically a requirement even for local communities. You'd be stupid to put all of your cash under your mattress or in your home. You'd be stupid to walk around all day every day with a significant chunk of cash/change. Keep excess cash in the bank or investments keeps it separated from the risk that your house is broken into or burns down, and separated from the risk of being mugged. Banks are regulated (in all countries I can think of) and federally insured in the US (I dunno about other countries' monetary insurances or policies). So if it's a separation of risk, then why undo all of that by walking around with all of your money in your phone? It's exactly the same problem but now in a brand-new electronic domain with little or no regulation at all. That's a stupid thing to do. So no, I do not use banking apps. Just as I don't put work shit on my phone, I also do not put banking shit on my phone. My phone is where non-technical people talk to me, and is high risk for incoming malware. Your employer doesn't want that, your bank doesn't want that. For the same reasons, I only open banking websites on a dedicated computer for the same reason. > There are very few places in the US that up charge for credit card transactions You already stated that "the merchant gets all except for a 2% fee". So (unless you want to argue that places take the fee at a loss) all places charge it, but many simply don't include that charge as a line-item on your receipt. It is therefore "often-hidden", which you quoted but ignored. > You don’t think the merchant network does anything? I didn't say that at all. The merchant network does help prevent fraud and I use my CC for items that I worry could be fraudulent. I simply don't buy from Amazon because fraudulent activity is too high and it's not worth the hassle. But on the other hand: medical costs, computers, digital services, and even local vendors can be shady as fuck. But there are plenty of places where you can build trust with your community. Your grocery store with perishable foods is in my experience much less likely to defraud you, specifically because you're able to look at and inspect items before purchase. > are you also opposed to debit transaction fees which are much lower and where there is a legsl cap? That's twice now that you're putting words in my message that weren't there. Maybe you should read my message again in a few hours after your next meal. You're stuck thinking about fees. No, the fees themselves aren't what I'm worried about. I'm worried about shit companies like Amazon who have no moral qualms about mixing fraudulent items with authentic items. I'm hateful of companies like Google who have absolutely no interest in providing help or support to the real people that they harm. I'm resentful of "businesses" who steal your data and get you addicted to stupid shit, just so they can make a profit off of you. I'm distrustful of any "business" who only takes sales online, sends spam, steals or abuses data about you, uses dark patterns for "engagement" to get people to do what the business wants them to... It's not all doom and gloom. I use a lot of cash, but I don't use exclusively cash. I have debit cards and credit cards and they definitely serve their purposes too. But cash is way more useful than some people on Hacker News want you to believe: if someone is talking against cash then there's a high likelihood that person either has an agenda that won't benefit you or is naive enough to advance someone else's agenda that won't benefit you.