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> I know we all like to think that corporations are evil and the presence of corporate interests actually messes stuff up. But Oracle actually is evil. > But

by nodata 14y ago

> I know we all like to think that corporations are evil and the presence of corporate interests actually messes stuff up. But Oracle actually is evil. > But this really is one case where you want the oomph of bilion-dollar company making sure that you get your security updates in time. Don't be naive, Oracle wouldn't be doing this if they didn't see a substantial business advantage. > No one else is providing that. Oracle happens to be doing so, and we're making it available to you for free, so why shouldn't you benefit from that? Awww. Oracle is so altruistic! Oracle has proven time again that they can't be trusted, and giving Oracle more control can only be bad.

davidw 14y ago
It's quite possible, that, being a huge company, they do a lot of bad crap (they are not high on my list), but there are some good people there trying to do good things.
- andrewcooke 14y ago
  so when centos is dead and buried and oracle turns round and shafts us we should say "well, there were some good people there...."?
  - wdaher 14y ago
    Given that Red Hat still can't get some people to move off RHEL 3, I'm amused that you think this could actually kill CentOS :) And in the unlikely event that it were to happen, you could just switch to Scientific Linux, or whatever new RHEL clone would crop up in the wake of the news.
    - andrewcooke 14y ago
      or we could stick with the guys who have given us centos. i am not sure why your compassion is so selective. people who work for fucking oracle are misunderstood saints, while the poor sods that put centos together - who have never done anyone any harm - should be thrown to the wolves.
      - wdaher 14y ago
        I don't think I've ever espoused that opinion! I like CentOS a lot. I had a beer with Karanbir in London in 2009, and I'm totally impressed that they're able to put out an incredibly popular Linux distribution with next to nothing, resource-wise. But if I were a sysadmin, would I run CentOS in production? Is CentOS perfect? I'd say no on both counts, and I think there's nothing wrong with saying "There's room for improvement, and we think we've done better."
        andrewcooke 14y ago
        but at what price? at the price of losing centos because oracle are a predatory monster driven solely by greed? put it another, more constructive way: wouldn't it be better to help centos rather than try to kill them? why not take that route?
        davidw 14y ago
        Most users of either one will likely not contribute anything at all back besides simply being part of the "network effects". I'm not a fan of Oracle either, but your rhetoric is in the red zone...
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        andrewcooke 14y ago
        you're right i'm angry. i'm sorry if it offends you. but still, i don't see what you're argument is. are you saying that because i am angry and "rhetorical" it's ok to switch to oracle? is noticing that i am angry somehow going to make everything work out? when centos folds and oracle decide to "raise margins" me being angry will make centos come back? because if not, i would suggest worrying a little less about my emotional state and a little more about the future of your operating system.
        14y ago
- khill 14y ago
  That fish rots from the head down. I've met a lot of smart and friendly developers who work for Oracle (or companies acquired by Oracle) so I know for a fact there are many people in that organization which are genuinely good and really smart. However, it seems to be a culture which promotes aggressive "shark" type personalities into leadership positions - people who, in my experience, have less focus on ethical business practices and more focus on increasing profits, crushing competition, and advancing up the ladder. It obviously makes for a successful company but it's a not one which I would trust to have my business' best interests at heart.
- Produce 14y ago
  The Nazi party had some good people trying to do good things too. Just sayin'.
endersshadow 14y ago
The guy you're replying to has implied he works for Oracle and helped bring this to fruition. Instead of asking what the advantage they see is or diving into it, you've accused him of lying and being a part of an evil organization. Oracle's a business--they make good products that many businesses rely on. While they've done some stuff that this crowd greatly disproves of (see: Java copyright/patents lawsuits), their motivation for doing this could be as simple as keeping the brand's security image in place. I just want you to know that you had a good opportunity here, and you wasted it.
- azundo 14y ago
  Maybe so, but if I was Oracle I would take this as great feedback. My guess is that the majority of people running CentOS have a very similar attitude, so they should understand that this will be the reaction, whether it is fair or not. It is up to Oracle to figure out how to build the required trust to market this, not up to consumers to accept it given Oracle's history. Millions of people are missing billions of opportunities every day (and you're probably one of them!) but you don't blame them for it, you figure out how to market a product more effectively instead.
- mistermumble 14y ago
  The "guy you're replying to" is Waseem Daher, who was COO and co-founder of KSplice, a startup acquired by Oracle. KSplice provides a mechanism for streaming updates to Linux Kernel and used to support CentOS, Ubuntu and Fedora. After Oracle acquired KSplice, they discontinued support for CentOS while continuing to support the other distros. Oracle also no longer makes available the formerly GPLed code of KSplice. lxnews.org/2011/07/31/centos-might-re-implement-ksplice/
  - wdaher 14y ago
    About half of this is accurate. We didn't discontinue support for CentOS; our legacy customers can continue to get access to Ksplice for all the distros we used to support. We did stop accepting new customers for anything other than Oracle Linux, though. The same source code that Ksplice made available at http://ksplice.com/software http://ksplice.com/software is also now currently at https://oss.oracle.com/ksplice/software/ https://oss.oracle.com/ksplice/software/
bdunbar 14y ago
But Oracle actually is evil. Evil is stomping a kitten to death. Evil is the gulag, the concentration camp, the cultural revolution. Oracle is just a business.
- obtu 14y ago
  They tried to make APIs copyrightable. That's about the same magnitude of evil as legalising software patents.
- hammersend 14y ago
  And the GP was giving his honest opinion. An opinion that is held by many people I've interacted with in the open source community regarding Oracle. Maybe instead of browbeating him over it you could consider encouraging Oracle to pay attention to things like this and do something about recovering their image. BTW, it isn't illegal in any jurisdiction I am aware of to harbor personal feelings towards brands and companies. That's what marketing is all about anyway.
  - skorgu 14y ago
    For a large segment of us (presumably the target market) there's no point in Oracle trying to recover their image. Based on direct personal experience I will fight tooth and nail against giving Oracle one red cent or one idle second. I can't think of anything they could do in the short or medium term that would change my mind so why waste time trying? Buying purchasing managers steak dinners and lapdances has a much better return on investment.
  - bdunbar 14y ago
    And the GP was giving his honest opinion I was giving my honest opinion of his honest opinion. An opinion that is held by many people These people have a weak grasp of the concept of 'evil'. In my opinion. Maybe instead of browbeating I wasn't doing that. My opinion. You could consider encouraging Oracle I'm nobody Oracle is going to listen to. I say this as a guy who has been dealing with Oracle for about a decade, supported database and application servers. Oracle pays attention to guys that write checks. And not just any checks but big checks. If the CIO of (say) AT&T brings this up with his sales rep, things will happen. Me .. not so much. BTW, it isn't illegal I believe you are reading things that I did not write.

by nodata 14y ago

davidw 14y ago

It's quite possible, that, being a huge company, they do a lot of bad crap (they are not high on my list), but there are some good people there trying to do good things.

andrewcooke 14y ago
so when centos is dead and buried and oracle turns round and shafts us we should say "well, there were some good people there...."?
- wdaher 14y ago
  Given that Red Hat still can't get some people to move off RHEL 3, I'm amused that you think this could actually kill CentOS :) And in the unlikely event that it were to happen, you could just switch to Scientific Linux, or whatever new RHEL clone would crop up in the wake of the news.
  - andrewcooke 14y ago
    or we could stick with the guys who have given us centos. i am not sure why your compassion is so selective. people who work for fucking oracle are misunderstood saints, while the poor sods that put centos together - who have never done anyone any harm - should be thrown to the wolves.
    - wdaher 14y ago
      I don't think I've ever espoused that opinion! I like CentOS a lot. I had a beer with Karanbir in London in 2009, and I'm totally impressed that they're able to put out an incredibly popular Linux distribution with next to nothing, resource-wise. But if I were a sysadmin, would I run CentOS in production? Is CentOS perfect? I'd say no on both counts, and I think there's nothing wrong with saying "There's room for improvement, and we think we've done better."
      - andrewcooke 14y ago
        but at what price? at the price of losing centos because oracle are a predatory monster driven solely by greed? put it another, more constructive way: wouldn't it be better to help centos rather than try to kill them? why not take that route?
        davidw 14y ago
        Most users of either one will likely not contribute anything at all back besides simply being part of the "network effects". I'm not a fan of Oracle either, but your rhetoric is in the red zone...
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        andrewcooke 14y ago
        you're right i'm angry. i'm sorry if it offends you. but still, i don't see what you're argument is. are you saying that because i am angry and "rhetorical" it's ok to switch to oracle? is noticing that i am angry somehow going to make everything work out? when centos folds and oracle decide to "raise margins" me being angry will make centos come back? because if not, i would suggest worrying a little less about my emotional state and a little more about the future of your operating system.
        14y ago
khill 14y ago
That fish rots from the head down. I've met a lot of smart and friendly developers who work for Oracle (or companies acquired by Oracle) so I know for a fact there are many people in that organization which are genuinely good and really smart. However, it seems to be a culture which promotes aggressive "shark" type personalities into leadership positions - people who, in my experience, have less focus on ethical business practices and more focus on increasing profits, crushing competition, and advancing up the ladder. It obviously makes for a successful company but it's a not one which I would trust to have my business' best interests at heart.
Produce 14y ago
The Nazi party had some good people trying to do good things too. Just sayin'.

endersshadow 14y ago

The guy you're replying to has implied he works for Oracle and helped bring this to fruition. Instead of asking what the advantage they see is or diving into it, you've accused him of lying and being a part of an evil organization. Oracle's a business--they make good products that many businesses rely on. While they've done some stuff that this crowd greatly disproves of (see: Java copyright/patents lawsuits), their motivation for doing this could be as simple as keeping the brand's security image in place. I just want you to know that you had a good opportunity here, and you wasted it.

azundo 14y ago
Maybe so, but if I was Oracle I would take this as great feedback. My guess is that the majority of people running CentOS have a very similar attitude, so they should understand that this will be the reaction, whether it is fair or not. It is up to Oracle to figure out how to build the required trust to market this, not up to consumers to accept it given Oracle's history. Millions of people are missing billions of opportunities every day (and you're probably one of them!) but you don't blame them for it, you figure out how to market a product more effectively instead.
mistermumble 14y ago
The "guy you're replying to" is Waseem Daher, who was COO and co-founder of KSplice, a startup acquired by Oracle. KSplice provides a mechanism for streaming updates to Linux Kernel and used to support CentOS, Ubuntu and Fedora. After Oracle acquired KSplice, they discontinued support for CentOS while continuing to support the other distros. Oracle also no longer makes available the formerly GPLed code of KSplice. lxnews.org/2011/07/31/centos-might-re-implement-ksplice/
- wdaher 14y ago
  About half of this is accurate. We didn't discontinue support for CentOS; our legacy customers can continue to get access to Ksplice for all the distros we used to support. We did stop accepting new customers for anything other than Oracle Linux, though. The same source code that Ksplice made available at http://ksplice.com/software http://ksplice.com/software is also now currently at https://oss.oracle.com/ksplice/software/ https://oss.oracle.com/ksplice/software/

bdunbar 14y ago

But Oracle actually is evil. Evil is stomping a kitten to death. Evil is the gulag, the concentration camp, the cultural revolution. Oracle is just a business.

obtu 14y ago
They tried to make APIs copyrightable. That's about the same magnitude of evil as legalising software patents.
hammersend 14y ago
And the GP was giving his honest opinion. An opinion that is held by many people I've interacted with in the open source community regarding Oracle. Maybe instead of browbeating him over it you could consider encouraging Oracle to pay attention to things like this and do something about recovering their image. BTW, it isn't illegal in any jurisdiction I am aware of to harbor personal feelings towards brands and companies. That's what marketing is all about anyway.
- skorgu 14y ago
  For a large segment of us (presumably the target market) there's no point in Oracle trying to recover their image. Based on direct personal experience I will fight tooth and nail against giving Oracle one red cent or one idle second. I can't think of anything they could do in the short or medium term that would change my mind so why waste time trying? Buying purchasing managers steak dinners and lapdances has a much better return on investment.
- bdunbar 14y ago
  And the GP was giving his honest opinion I was giving my honest opinion of his honest opinion. An opinion that is held by many people These people have a weak grasp of the concept of 'evil'. In my opinion. Maybe instead of browbeating I wasn't doing that. My opinion. You could consider encouraging Oracle I'm nobody Oracle is going to listen to. I say this as a guy who has been dealing with Oracle for about a decade, supported database and application servers. Oracle pays attention to guys that write checks. And not just any checks but big checks. If the CIO of (say) AT&T brings this up with his sales rep, things will happen. Me .. not so much. BTW, it isn't illegal I believe you are reading things that I did not write.