4 ms·

Also involves killing calves

by npoc 2y ago

viccis 2y ago
That's how our civilization's relationship to cows has worked for millennia.
- npoc 2y ago
  Our civilisations also kept slaves for millennia.
  - megous 2y ago
    They still do, mechanisms and messaging are just smarter.
  - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
    Not sure there isn't a group bringing it back. Outlawing being poor/homeless, so the poor can be arrested just for not having housing. Or for debts. Then, making laws that inmates can be provided to corporations to work. Boom, some slavery.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      It's not being brought back. There is slavery today[0]. [0] https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery
      - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        Not sure the US will realize it until everyone has an uncle or cousin working as an indentured servant in a prison workforce. Then MAGA will be like "hey, wait a minute, this seems kind of like slavery. Isn't that something we stopped teaching in school".
    - pfannkuchen 2y ago
      I’m really confused why congress doesn’t outlaw prison labor of this kind. No one supports it anywhere on the political spectrum. Are the companies who profit from it really that influential?
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Our civilisations also drank water for millennia.
  - viccis 2y ago
    I'm aware of the is-ought problem with my statement, but my point is that that is the role calves play when we want cow dairy products. The problem with it as it exists today is the barbarous nature of factory farming.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  You mean western civilisation I guess? After those millennia, still 75% of the human population didn’t start or finish their milk adaptation.
jvanderbot 2y ago
This isn't clear to me. Whey is a byproduct of milk->cheese production. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11142983/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11142983/
- npoc 2y ago
  Milk production is performed by making cows pregnant repeatedly (about once per year I think) throughout their lives and then killing most of their calves. Once the mother cow is worn out from all the births, they too are killed.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    Male calves are usually sold for meat (veal). Cows that cannot produce sufficient milk are sold for beef. This is objectionable if you find any of the meat farming practices objectionable, but whey itself does not necessitate killing anything. A replacement rate breeding program for cows that rotates dairy production is probably possible. It's just not what we seem to want.
    - npoc 2y ago
      > whey itself does not necessitate killing anything. This is assuming that people would eat calves if they weren't killed so that we can take their milk.
      - jvanderbot 2y ago
        You're right, but I think about it the other direction. We currently _do_ eat the calves that _are_ killed so we can take their milk. We _could_ (probably) figure out a way to not require killing them, I just don't know what that would be.
        GrantMoyer 2y ago
        Back of the envelope math: cows live for about 20 years, but dairy cows are killed after about 4 years when their milk production slows. Assuming they are impregnated 4 times, that's (5 cows * 20 years per cow) / (4 years) = 25 times as costly. And this 25 times as costly milk has to compete with the 1 times as costly milk in a market that's already so competative that milk is sold below cost with government subsidies. It's impossible for practical purposes.
detourdog 2y ago
Whey is a milk product why do calves die?
- npoc 2y ago
  It's the dead calves' milk.
  - detourdog 2y ago
    One can have whey without the calf dying. I have personally seen whey produced without harming calves. I also don't understand why some HNer's insist on downvoting simple questions. Trying to silence questioning is not healthy for society.
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
      I agree with the downvote think. What you have seen (whey without calves harm) is probably typical an old farming practice OR of some rural family production. That’s great for them and their cows, but have nothing to do with 99% of the milk consumed daily, even the best quality you can buy wherever else those farms are.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        Do you think all dairy cows need calves to create milk? I don't care if someone disagrees with my posts I agree that they engage in conversation. Downvoting without explanation is my complaint. Finally the comment that whey production results in dead calves is pretty simplistic and not based on any analysis that I can discern. If HN is about the struggle for truth I expect a certain amount of intellectual rigor in comments.
        aziaziazi 2y ago
        I meant "I agree with you about the downvote think". I also read your explanation in sibling thread. IMHO you’re right about the calves not-killed if we only look for a specific time frame , but it can’t work on the long run. If you can please share some materials for us to learn more. Also, cows definitely needs a clave to start the milk production.
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Not a problem for most people, except vegans.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  It is a moral problem for many people, however changing delicious, traditional and healthy habits is not so evident. I don’t blame them.
- hombre_fatal 2y ago
  I'd wager most people actually do inconveniently hold some vegan ethics, but there's a blind spot due to tradition, culture, and habit. For example, most people have some sheepishly held position against factory farming despite partaking in it. And they think it's wrong to kick a dog and a pig and a cow. And watching a documentary like Dominion or Earthlings makes them feel horrible so they'd prefer not to watch it.

Also involves killing calves

by npoc 2y ago

Also involves killing calves

viccis 2y ago

That's how our civilization's relationship to cows has worked for millennia.

npoc 2y ago
Our civilisations also kept slaves for millennia.
- megous 2y ago
  They still do, mechanisms and messaging are just smarter.
- FrustratedMonky 2y ago
  Not sure there isn't a group bringing it back. Outlawing being poor/homeless, so the poor can be arrested just for not having housing. Or for debts. Then, making laws that inmates can be provided to corporations to work. Boom, some slavery.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    It's not being brought back. There is slavery today[0]. [0] https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      Not sure the US will realize it until everyone has an uncle or cousin working as an indentured servant in a prison workforce. Then MAGA will be like "hey, wait a minute, this seems kind of like slavery. Isn't that something we stopped teaching in school".
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    I’m really confused why congress doesn’t outlaw prison labor of this kind. No one supports it anywhere on the political spectrum. Are the companies who profit from it really that influential?
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Our civilisations also drank water for millennia.
- viccis 2y ago
  I'm aware of the is-ought problem with my statement, but my point is that that is the role calves play when we want cow dairy products. The problem with it as it exists today is the barbarous nature of factory farming.
aziaziazi 2y ago
You mean western civilisation I guess? After those millennia, still 75% of the human population didn’t start or finish their milk adaptation.

jvanderbot 2y ago

This isn't clear to me. Whey is a byproduct of milk->cheese production. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11142983/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11142983/

npoc 2y ago
Milk production is performed by making cows pregnant repeatedly (about once per year I think) throughout their lives and then killing most of their calves. Once the mother cow is worn out from all the births, they too are killed.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Male calves are usually sold for meat (veal). Cows that cannot produce sufficient milk are sold for beef. This is objectionable if you find any of the meat farming practices objectionable, but whey itself does not necessitate killing anything. A replacement rate breeding program for cows that rotates dairy production is probably possible. It's just not what we seem to want.
  - npoc 2y ago
    > whey itself does not necessitate killing anything. This is assuming that people would eat calves if they weren't killed so that we can take their milk.
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      You're right, but I think about it the other direction. We currently _do_ eat the calves that _are_ killed so we can take their milk. We _could_ (probably) figure out a way to not require killing them, I just don't know what that would be.
      - GrantMoyer 2y ago
        Back of the envelope math: cows live for about 20 years, but dairy cows are killed after about 4 years when their milk production slows. Assuming they are impregnated 4 times, that's (5 cows * 20 years per cow) / (4 years) = 25 times as costly. And this 25 times as costly milk has to compete with the 1 times as costly milk in a market that's already so competative that milk is sold below cost with government subsidies. It's impossible for practical purposes.

detourdog 2y ago

Whey is a milk product why do calves die?

npoc 2y ago
It's the dead calves' milk.
- detourdog 2y ago
  One can have whey without the calf dying. I have personally seen whey produced without harming calves. I also don't understand why some HNer's insist on downvoting simple questions. Trying to silence questioning is not healthy for society.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    I agree with the downvote think. What you have seen (whey without calves harm) is probably typical an old farming practice OR of some rural family production. That’s great for them and their cows, but have nothing to do with 99% of the milk consumed daily, even the best quality you can buy wherever else those farms are.
    - detourdog 2y ago
      Do you think all dairy cows need calves to create milk? I don't care if someone disagrees with my posts I agree that they engage in conversation. Downvoting without explanation is my complaint. Finally the comment that whey production results in dead calves is pretty simplistic and not based on any analysis that I can discern. If HN is about the struggle for truth I expect a certain amount of intellectual rigor in comments.
      - aziaziazi 2y ago
        I meant "I agree with you about the downvote think". I also read your explanation in sibling thread. IMHO you’re right about the calves not-killed if we only look for a specific time frame , but it can’t work on the long run. If you can please share some materials for us to learn more. Also, cows definitely needs a clave to start the milk production.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

Not a problem for most people, except vegans.

aziaziazi 2y ago
It is a moral problem for many people, however changing delicious, traditional and healthy habits is not so evident. I don’t blame them.
hombre_fatal 2y ago
I'd wager most people actually do inconveniently hold some vegan ethics, but there's a blind spot due to tradition, culture, and habit. For example, most people have some sheepishly held position against factory farming despite partaking in it. And they think it's wrong to kick a dog and a pig and a cow. And watching a documentary like Dominion or Earthlings makes them feel horrible so they'd prefer not to watch it.